Friday Talking Points [138] -- "Candidate" Obama Returns
America (as, likely, everywhere else) always has a seamy underside, crawling with metaphoric maggots, to anything that is mostly seen as good by the majority of the populace. One of those maggots crawled out this week in the religious world, down in Florida. Its proper name is bigotry, or perhaps hatred. It is the direct descendent of Kristallnacht, and of the Ku Klux Klan. And, of course, all of that makes for good television, as far as the media is concerned.
Using what I would call "the Balloon Boy effect," a pastor with a very small flock managed to get his face pretty much in every media outlet which currently exists. There's a lesson to be drawn from all of this, and it is an ugly one which will likely happen repeatedly, until the media figures out how badly it is being "played" -- threatening to burn a Quran all but guarantees you worldwide media attention. Other hate-filled religious leaders (of which, sadly, America has more than just one) will likely figure this out fairly soon. In other words, even after tomorrow, this could become a much bigger problem.
Which is why I've been refusing to acknowledge the guy, or otherwise write about him. He doesn't deserve it, what he deserves is to be quickly forgotten.
On the political front, the big story this week was the reappearance of what has been called "Candidate Obama." But we're devoting a lot of today's article to this story, so we will just mention it in passing up front (in a nod to English teachers everywhere, this is known as "foreshadowing," or, for Journalism teachers, a "teaser").
Breaking news this morning was the ruling by a federal judge which could overturn the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" (DADT) policy of barring gay people from openly serving in the military. While this is indeed a momentous occasion for gay rights folks, the case still has quite a ways to go before the courts will officially overturn the policy once and for all. Not to detract from the ruling itself, or the possible consequences -- which are huge. The status of Obama's efforts on overturning DADT are in a critical phase right now, and this ruling will likely give the boost that is needed to move forward quickly. The House, in passing the military appropriations bill (which funds the Pentagon each year), has already passed a repeal of DADT. The bill is now in the Senate's hands. Using the leverage of the court's opinion to give the effort a new sense of urgency can only help the process move along faster. The Senate is already aware that the Pentagon itself will be releasing a report on how to transition away from DADT in a few months' time. Meaning that everyone is getting on board the effort, making it easier for the Senate to act on it.
Politically, of course, it's a winner for Democrats, even if Republicans may not have figured this out yet. Unlike gay marriage, scrapping DADT has an enormous majority of the public's opinion behind it. This means that the losing side of the debate has switched from the anti-gay position to the pro-gay position in the last couple of decades. Republicans are going to be forced to walk a tightrope on the issue. Will they "vote against funding our troops in time of war" solely on the DADT issue? That's going to annoy some folks. Will they strongly denounce gay rights? This is usually a winning issue with their base, but it now has to be seen as a dangerous position to take when courting independent voters. The big question, as always, is: will Harry Reid push hard for this and get it done before the election? That's the great unknown, at this point.
On a personal note, last week (in this column) one couldn't help but wonder if perhaps someone in the White House may be reading this column (since I called for a presidential press conference right before they -- coincidentally, I'm sure -- announced today's press conference). This week, I decided to put this notion to a test. I'm sad to report that my leverage over the White House is, as I suspected, non-existent. Tuesday, I called on Rahm Emanuel to immediately decide to run for Chicago's mayor, and that we would all be strongly behind him in his efforts to do so, as he exits the White House. OK, it was snarky, but c'mon, it's Rahm Emanuel after all. Ahem. Yesterday, I rashly predicted that President Obama would announce the nomination of Elizabeth Warren to head the newly-created Consumer Financial Protection Bureau today. Well, that one didn't happen, either, although Obama did walk right up to doing so in his press conference, but then he walked right back away from it as well, leaving nothing but confusion in his wake. So, having gone zero-for-two this week, we can definitively say that any delusions of grandeur we might have had were completely unfounded.
Just to set the record straight. Heh.
Enough of this frivolity, though, let's move on to the awards part of the presentation.
Before we get to the main award here, we've got to at least tip our metaphoric hat to Tim Geithner, for giving a great interview on PBS' The News Hour earlier this week. The president has obviously made this "Economy Week," to roll out their arguments for Democrats to use in the upcoming election. But to be successful at this effort, Obama simply can't do it alone. He's got to have a chorus of Democratic voices behind him echoing the same storyline. Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner did so during the week, explaining the administration's position on a range of economic issues. Now, Geithner certainly has his critics on the Left, but supporting the president publicly is a big part of any Cabinet member's job, and Geithner did a pretty good job of doing so. So we're awarding him an Honorable Mention this week for his interview. Geithner has also gotten a lot better at giving interviews since he first took the job, we should point out.
But the Most Impressive Democrat Of The Week this week, hands down, was none other than President Barack Obama. To be honest, he didn't really have a lot of competition, since this is the final week of Congress' multi-week midsummer vacation, meaning most Democrats were enjoying themselves off on junkets or back in their home districts -- leaving a pretty clear field for the president to dominate the week.
And dominate he did. Monday, he gave a rousing pro-worker Labor Day speech, Wednesday he gave a rousing speech on the economy, and Friday he held the first press conference he's held in months. Finally, the White House seems to have woken up and realized that "overexposure" of a president is a myth propagated by those who oppose him. The "bully pulpit" is there to be used, in other words, not there to gather dust until Fox News decides it is OK for the president to speak to the public.
But it's not just the fact that the president is speaking to the public so often, it's also what he's been saying. Obama finally seems to have realized there's an election coming up, and has given up on the bipartisanship dream. And, in doing so, he has gotten back to talking about what Democrats believe in, and what Republicans are fighting for, and against. He's even calling out Republican congressional leaders by name. But the biggest thing is that he's now providing a narrative for the Democratic Party. He's telling the story of who Democrats are, what their values are, and what he's going to fight for as a result. I examined this shift in greater detail after his Wednesday speech, and we'll be examining it in the Talking Points section here as well, so we'll just leave it at that for now.
But seeing the old "Candidate Obama" out there was refreshing this week, we have to say. Two things about Obama keep getting forgotten by virtually everyone (us included, we should mention) -- that he's a great campaigner, and that he "closes well." You can think (as we do, on occasion) that one of Obama's biggest faults is not getting involved soon enough in the partisan fights, but when he does get involved, he finishes well. This is good news, because this time Obama seems eager for the fight, and his timing seems to be perfect. He used the last week before Congress returns to take a virtually empty stage (with everyone else still on vacation) to make his case to the American people before the legislative fight is truly joined.
We'll see whether he can keep the pressure up all the way to Election Day, and whether Harry Reid can manage to get anything done in the Senate, but we have to admit, it's been an impressive start, so far.
Which is why President Obama has won this week's Most Impressive Democrat Of The Week award. About the only thing he didn't do which would really have capped the week off was announce Elizabeth Warren's nomination, but maybe he's saving that for next week, to suck the oxygen out of the room right when Congress reconvenes. One can only hope.
[Congratulate President Barack Obama on the White House contact page, to let him know you appreciate his efforts.]
Even though obscure, there was really only one candidate for Most Disappointing Democrat Of The Week, or perhaps more accurately, Most Boneheaded Democrat Of The Week. Sigh.
Marcus Stanley, senior aide to Senator Barbara Boxer, was arrested by the police this Tuesday when he tried to enter the Hart Senate Office Building. Now, normally, he'd be allowed into this building, since he has a high-ranking staffer's job. The problem was, Stanley forgot to leave his marijuana at home. Some news reports even quoted the cops saying they had seen him remove a bag of leafy substance from his pocket. If true, this means that Stanley didn't just bring his weed to work, but actually whipped it out in plain view of a cop. And we can assure you (without even bothering to check) that it wasn't "Bring Your Weed To Work Day" in the Senate.
At least Stanley had the good sense to immediately resign his position, that's about the only good news here.
The sticky (one might almost say "chronic") irony of the situation is that Senator Boxer has come out against Proposition 19 in her home state of California (as, to be fair, just about every other statewide Democratic officeholder and candidate for office), which would legalize recreational marijuana. This irony, properly stated, is that if a senior aide to a United States senator can (quite obviously) enjoy recreational marijuana and yet still do his job (well enough to earn a six-figure salary) as a productive and responsible member of society, then why can't everyone else? In other words, how can his boss be against Prop. 19, when she now has evidence that using recreational marijuana isn't the evil it is portrayed as?
Put that, Senator Boxer, in your pipe and smoke it... so to speak (feel free to insert your own "stoner joke" in the comments).
But we can't really fault Boxer for her stance, since (as mentioned) pretty much every other Democrat in California (except those in very safe districts) has come out against Prop. 19 as well. But, for complicating Boxer's own message, for embarrassing his boss, and for providing a distraction Democrats don't need at the moment, we hereby award Marcus Stanley the Most Disappointing Democrat Of The Week award.
[Since Marcus Stanley has recently left public office, no contact information is currently available for him. If you'd like to contact Senator Barbara Boxer to point out the inherent contradiction of having a trusted staffer who uses marijuana and her current political position on Proposition 19, you can contact her on her Senate contact page, to let her know what you think of the irony of it all. Or to send her a stoner joke... heh.]
Volume 138 (9/10/10)
It's going to be an all-Obama Talking Points this week, I should warn everyone up front. Obama has done such a good job framing the issues this week, that all Democrats have to do is write a few of his quotes down, and they'll be fully prepared to be interviewed this week. Democrats should (for once) strongly get behind the president and strongly support his view of things, because it's just about the last hope they've got left in this election. If they revert to their normal state of squabbling, this opportunity will be lost. If they present one voice and strong resolve, the entire political conversation could change for the better for the next few months.
It's really up to them, at this point. It was extremely tough to only pick seven talking points from Obama's performances this week, so I limited myself to the transcript of Wednesday's speech and of today's press conference to narrow things down. In no particular order, here are the best talking points Democrats could ask for, right before the congressional legislative battle begins anew. To use them, all that is needed is an introductory "well, as the president recently said..." or some such phrasing. Any Democrat being interviewed by the media would do well to jot a few of these down on three-by-five cards, is what I'm saying.
Tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires
I've been beating this drum for a while now (as in Talking Point number one from two weeks ago). Get beyond the "couples making $250,000 a year or individuals making $200,000 a year" language, and cut right to the heart of the matter. President Obama used the term "tax cuts for millionaires" repeatedly in his press conference today. This is the correct way to "frame" an issue. Democrats need to use this phrase in every single sentence on the subject for the next two months. Say it with me: "tax cuts for millionaires" or maybe "tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires."
From Obama's lead-in paragraphs:
As I said in Cleveland on Wednesday, I ran for President because I believed the policies of the previous decade had left our economy weaker and our middle class struggling. They were policies that cut taxes, especially for millionaires and billionaires, cut regulations for corporations and for special interests, and left everyone else pretty much fending for themselves. They were policies that ultimately culminated in a financial crisis and a terrible recession that we're still digging out of today.
We came into office with a different view about how our economy should work. Instead of tax cuts for millionaires, we believe in cutting taxes for middle-class families and small business owners. We've done that.
We can't afford to wait for partisan games
This is a good one, especially since it comes from a Republican quote. The basic message: we can't wait. Republicans are essentially telling the American people "vote us in, and we'll fix things once we take power in January." The response to this from the Democratic side should be unanimous: "We can't wait."
Again, from Obama's opening remarks at the presser:
But one thing we can do next week is end a month-long standoff on a small business jobs bill that's been held up in the Senate by a partisan minority. I realize there are plenty of issues in Washington where people of good faith simply disagree on principle. This should not and is not one of those issues.
This is a bill that does two main things: It gives small business owners tax cuts, and it helps them get loans. It will eliminate capital gains taxes for key investments in one million small businesses. It will provide incentives to invest and create jobs for four million small businesses. It will more than double the amount some small business owners can borrow to grow their companies. It's a bill that's paid for, a bill that won't add to the deficit. It has been written by Democrats and Republicans. It's a bill that's been praised by the Chamber of Commerce. And yet a minority of Republican senators have been using legislative tactics to prevent the bill from even getting to a vote.
Now, I was pleased to see that yesterday, Republican Senator George Voinovich of Ohio said he would refuse to support this blockade any longer. Senator Voinovich said, "This country is really hurting," and "We don't have time anymore to play games." I could not agree more.
I understand there's an election coming up. But the American people didn't send us here to think about our jobs. They sent us here to think about theirs. And there are small businesses right now who are putting off plans to hire more workers because this bill is stalled. That's not the kind of leadership this country deserves. And I hope we can now move forward to get small business owners the relief they need to start hiring and growing again.
Eight consecutive months of private sector job growth
This talking point was rolled out in a big way by the White House this week, and if Democrats would only repeat it a few times, it would help put the job market in some perspective. It also removes the data from the temporary hiring that was necessary for the federal government to complete its decennial census, to concentrate solely on "private sector jobs."
Of course, this always needs to be prefaced with "we're not there yet, but we're heading in the right direction" sort of language, though, to not appear to be "out of touch" with the unemployment situation. And always couple with "we were losing 750,000 jobs per month when Obama took office" to put it in context.
As I just indicated, middle-class families had been struggling for a decade, before I came into office. Their wages and incomes had flat-lined. They were seeing the cost of everything from health care to sending their kids to college going up. Job growth was the weakest of any economic expansion between 2001 and 2008 since World War II. The pace was slower than it's been over the last year.
So these policies of cutting taxes for the wealthiest Americans, of stripping away regulations that protect consumers, running up a record surplus to a record deficit -- those policies finally culminated in the worst financial crisis we've had since the Great Depression. And for 19 months, what we have done is steadily worked to avoid a depression, to take an economy that was contracting rapidly and making it grow again; a situation where we were losing 750,000 jobs a month, and now we've had eight consecutive months of private sector job growth; and made investments that are going to strengthen the economy over the long term.
Holding middle class tax cuts hostage
Once again, an excellent job of framing from the White House. It also has the benefit of being true. One of the things that may get lost in the shuffle as Congress debates the Bush tax cut extensions is the fact that if they don't do anything (which Congress, of course, excels at), then all the tax cuts will expire. They've got to pass a bill in order to save the middle class tax cuts. Meaning the "hostage" language is entirely accurate, because that is exactly what Republicans are about to do -- hold middle class tax cuts hostage to hold out for tax cuts for millionaires. And it's easy to make the moral case against doing so.
Now, that seems like a common-sense thing to do. And what I've got is the Republicans holding middle-class tax relief hostage because they're insisting we've got to give tax relief to millionaires and billionaires to the tune of about $100,000 per millionaire, which would cost over the course of ten years, $700 billion, and that economists say is probably the worst way to stimulate the economy. That doesn't make sense, and that's an example of what this election is all about.
Same old, same old
The president has been forcefully pointing out a basic fact which the media has largely ignored so far -- the Republicans simply have no new ideas (unless you count the fringes of the Tea Parties, where ideas such as repealing Constitutional Amendments and dismantling Social Security abound). Democrats should be loudly stating: "We've put what we want to do on the table. Republicans have nothing but the same old, same old ideas which got us into the mess in the first place."
Obama showed how to make this into a larger moral argument, during his speech Wednesday in Cleveland (where John Boehner had recently given a speech):
And so people are frustrated and they're angry and they're anxious about the future. I understand that. I also understand that in a political campaign, the easiest thing for the other side to do is to ride this fear and anger all the way to Election Day.
That's what's happening right now. A few weeks ago, the Republican leader of the House came here to Cleveland and offered his party's answer to our economic challenges. Now, it would be one thing if he had admitted his party's mistakes during the eight years that they were in power, if they had gone off for a while and meditated, and come back and offered a credible new approach to solving our country's problems.
But that's not what happened. There were no new policies from Mr. Boehner. There were no new ideas. There was just the same philosophy that we had already tried during the decade that they were in power -- the same philosophy that led to this mess in the first place: Cut more taxes for millionaires and cut more rules for corporations.
Instead of coming together like past generations did to build a better country for our children and grandchildren, their argument is that we should let insurance companies go back to denying care for folks who are sick, or let credit card companies go back to raising rates without any reason. Instead of setting our sights higher, they're asking us to settle for a status quo of stagnant growth and eroding competitiveness and a shrinking middle class.
Cleveland, that is not the America I know. That is not the America we believe in.
A lot has changed since I came here in those final days of the last election, but what hasn't is the choice facing this country. It's still fear versus hope; the past versus the future. It's still a choice between sliding backward and moving forward. That's what this election is about. That's the choice you will face in November.
Point out the obstructionism
Republicans have been getting away with setting record levels of obstructionism in the Senate largely because Democrats seem to have decided that this is a normal state of affairs, and not even worth mentioning. This is wrong. The obstructionism can be a powerful political argument -- especially in cases where it is so obviously nothing more than rank partisanship for the sake of partisanship. If the Democrats howled even one-tenth as loud as Republicans would (were their positions reversed) about getting "up or down votes" or "majority rules" or "partisan obstructionism" then they'd put the issue a little more front and center.
Obama showed Democrats how to do this, when answering a question about Elizabeth Warren's possible nomination. He pivoted to the larger subject of obstructionism without missing a beat (he trailed off after the phrase "dog catcher," and I cut out a reporter's interruption at this point in the transcript):
I'm concerned about all Senate confirmations these days. I mean, if I nominate somebody for dog catcher... I wasn't trying to be funny. I am concerned about all Senate nominations these days. I've got people who have been waiting for six months to get confirmed who nobody has an official objection to and who were voted out of committee unanimously, and I can't get a vote on them.
We've got judges who are pending. We've got people who are waiting to help us on critical issues like homeland security. And it's very hard when you've got a determined minority in the Senate that insists on a 60-vote filibuster on every single person that we're trying to confirm, even if after we break the filibuster, it turns out that they get 90 votes. They're just playing games. And as I think Senator Voinovich said very well, it's time to stop playing games.
OK, how would you shrink the deficit?
This is the big question that Republicans truly have no answer for. This needs to be pointed out, since the media certainly hasn't done this job. For instance, the best argument against making the high-income tax cuts permanent is the fact that it'll push up the deficit, because this points out the hypocrisy of the Republican positions on both (which are contradictory). As Obama put it:
It's because we can't afford the $700 billion price tag. And for those who claim that our approach would somehow be bad for growth and bad for small businesses, let me remind you that with those tax rates in place, under President Clinton, this country created 22 million jobs and raised incomes and had the largest surplus in our history
This cuts out several Republican arguments before the debate begins. But the real overarching question is still: how, exactly, would Republicans fix the deficit they say they all hate? What, exactly, would get cut? If Democrats can shift the debate to what Republicans are in favor of cutting, it's either going to make them look pretty extreme in the eyes of suburban independent voters, or it's going to enrage the Tea Party folks by not going far enough. This is a battle the Democrats really need be on offense for, because it is going to put Republicans in a very defensive position. But the argument has to be made: what, exactly, would you cut?
Now, it's right to be concerned about the long-term deficit. If we don't get a handle on it soon, it can endanger our future. And at a time when folks are tightening their belts at home, I understand why a lot of Americans feel it's time for government to show some discipline, too. But let's look at the facts. When these same Republicans -- including Mr. Boehner -- were in charge, the number of earmarks and pet projects went up, not down.
These same Republicans turned a record surplus into a record deficit. When I walked in, wrapped in a nice bow was a $1.3 trillion deficit sitting right there on my doorstep. A welcoming present.
Just this year, these same Republicans voted against a bipartisan fiscal commission that they themselves had proposed. Once I decided I was for it, they were against it. And when you ask them what programs they'd actually cut they don't have an answer.
That's not fiscal responsibility. That's not a serious plan to govern.
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Cross-posted at: Democratic Underground
Cross-posted at: The Huffington Post
-- Chris Weigant
Nobody? Liz?
C'mon, I said nice things about Geithner and everything!
:-)
-CW
Chris,
I've been a bit distracted tonight and I just now read your glowing review of the beleguered and unsung treasury secretary's performance on the esteemed PBS Newshour ... oh, I kid the Newshour ...
I can hardly wait to see the reaction to this Honourable Mention from the friendly folks at HP. That fun will just have to wait until tomorrow, though.
Incidentally, how many times do I have to tell you that you have a number of fans in the White House and beyond. This is no joke!
I just had a thought - you should suggest that Geithner make better use of his blogging privileges at HP to explain a few things and set the record straight. Wait ... that may be too much fun than I could possibly be expected to handle ...
I didn't get past the Geithner surprise - the rest will have to wait until tomorrow ... or later today ...I'll be back! :)
Sorry, CW... I crash earlier on Fri nights... :D
But I do check out FTP early Sat..
Which is why I've been refusing to acknowledge the guy, or otherwise write about him. He doesn't deserve it, what he deserves is to be quickly forgotten.
I think the bigger point that comes from this loon is how it lays bare the complete and utter hypocrisy of the Left (present company excepted, of course :D ).
The Left is well known for the supporting to the hilt the right to burn sacred objects in protest to further a point or an agenda.
Apparently that right doesn't extend to conservatives.
Why doesn't the Left just come right out and say it?? They want complete and unfettered rights for all on the Left?? On the Right?? All of them on the Right should be condemned to Gitmo and water-boarded daily...
That seems to be the attitude of the Left these days... Once again, present company excepted..
Personally, I WANTED to see the Koran burning go on.. Not because I harbor any deep resentment of Islam.. Well, not beyond any resentment.... no, make that contempt.. not beyond any contempt that I hold for ALL religions..
But I am sick and tired of how Muslims are always "offended" by the actions of Americans, yet Muslims do their damnedest to prove just how savage and uncivilized Muslims are..
Just let me say that respect and tolerance are TWO way streets. Muslims need to learn this, if they want to be part of the civilized world.
That's all I am going to say about this, as I don't want this thread to turn into another Pro-Muslim/Anti-Muslim ping-pong match...
Since the rest of your missive seems to concentrate on economic issues and news, I really don't have much to add...
Plus, I got to get to work anyways. :D
Michale.....
Same old, same old
Here's a good one from OH-8.
In a recent interview w/ the Cincinnati Enquirer editorial board (talk about your softball audience) John Boehner introduced his 2-point plan to fix the economy.
Yes. His 2-point plan. It's so simple it can all be solved with just 2 points. From the horse himself:
http://johnboehner.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=205278
But it gets better.
One of the points is a 2-year extension of all the Bush tax cuts. Not sure how this is new. Not to mention paid for.
So basically, he's got a 1-point plan. And I bet you can guess what his 1-point plan is.
You got it. Cut all the stuff that Republicans don't like. Social security,
So to repeat. His 2-point plan is (1) the Bush tax cuts, which squandered away a surplus and (2) cut all of the programs that help everyone but the wealthy.
No ... new ... ideas. Not even a good recycling of old ideas. About the one thing you can say about Boehner is, at least he knows who writes his checks.
Cheers
-David
I'm not saying anything 'til you congratulate me for my shiny new Huffington Post Pundit badge. 'D
I'm not saying anything 'til you congratulate me for my shiny new Huffington Post Pundit badge. 'D
Wooot!!! Operation: INFILTRATE HUFFPO has begun!! :D
HP must be REALLY desperate for writers!! hehehehehehe
Just kidding, CB.. :D Congrats.....
Michale.....
David,
Given the current state of affairs, that oh so important INDEPENDENT voter would rather have NO ideas than a continuation of BAD, VERY BAD ideas...
Michale....
Michale -
Not to be nitpicky, but Hillary Clinton once sponsored a flag-burning amendment. Maybe she's just against burning stuff, I dunno...
Chris1962 -
I have to admit, I am somewhat clueless about HuffPost's whole badge thing myself, but congratulations nonetheless! I don't even think I have one of those pundit ones, but I'm DQed for a lot of them because I'm not on Facebook, I think.
-CW
Chris1962,
I'm not saying anything 'til you congratulate me for my shiny new Huffington Post Pundit badge.
What d'ya want - a medal or a chest to pin it on?
That's me trying to be funny.
CW,
Not to be nitpicky, but Hillary Clinton once sponsored a flag-burning amendment. Maybe she's just against burning stuff, I dunno...
Nit pick away.. This is your place.. :D
While I am sure that there are a few Lefties who oppose Flag burning, I am sure you will concede that the vast majority of the Left (both hysterical and rational) support the concept of Flag Burning as a legitimate protest..
Which begs the question....
Why is Flag burning a legitimate protest but Koran burning is hysterically sacrilegious???
Again, I really don't want to turn this into one of those threads, but I think it is a fair and rational question..
That question got me banned from another Lefty/Echo-Chamber blog... :D
Another notch for the ole' gunslinger... :D
Michale....
"Das war ein Vorspiel nur, dort wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man am Ende auch Menschen." ("That was but a prelude; where they burn books, they will ultimately burn people also.")
-Heinrich Heine
that's why.
in my temple at rosh hashana, we had a bit of a debate about how one ought to respond to the quran burning. my rabbi was quoted in the miami herald, where there's also some other relevant information about the pastor.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/09/09/1815036/religious-leaders-slam-plan-to.html
Michale,
I'll take a stab at it. Your "fair and rational question" is answered by the phrasing of your not-comparable example. I'll try to keep this simple. A flag, and the country it represents, is not a core belief system for existence; unless one is hyper-jingoistic. Somalis and Sudanese, for example, have no choice in the country of their birth. And I would imagine a great number of them are ashamed and/or afraid of their governance. Burning a flag, which I'm sure has different shades of "sacrilege" depending on the country, is simply a non-violent way of protesting a government's policies/actions.
The Koran is the spiritual guidebook of one of the world's great religions. It transcends nationalities, as does the Bible. I seem to have missed the stories where Islamic extremists burned Bibles, since I am sure you would have gleefully brought them up to support your rather scary world outlook. And for a frightening number of people, the Bible is a spiritual guidebook. Both books have lunatics whose extreme interpretations of them have resulted in mass tragedies. But comparing a belief system on how to live one's life to a symbol relating simply to the accident of one's birthplace is the kind of silly comparison you so often make and then pat yourself on the back for. Do you really believe the symbol a flag represents equals a belief system on how to live one's life? You can keep your notch.
Kevin & NYpoet,
I had a big long response posted on this, but I deleted it all because I really don't want to drag this commentary to that particular discussion.
Suffice it to say that I know of many men and women who are as devoted to the symbol of our country (our Flag) as religious people are devoted to the symbols of their religion.
When one gets right down to it, our flag is but a piece of cloth and the koran and the bible are nothing but trite and cliched fantasy novels.
But both can be very powerful symbols of devotion to the people that follow them.
And NO ONE can sit in judgment and state that one devotion is not as important as another devotion to the people who are devoted.
I won't get into the legal question, as the law is clearly on my side. The SCOTUS has ruled that burning an American flag is protected speech. I am certain that this ruling would cover the koran, the bible, the torah and even Action Comics #1, the first appearance of Superman.
Michale.....
This week, I decided to put this notion to a test. I'm sad to report that my leverage over the White House is, as I suspected, non-existent. Tuesday, I called on Rahm Emanuel to immediately decide to run for Chicago's mayor, and that we would all be strongly behind him in his efforts to do so, as he exits the White House. OK, it was snarky, but c'mon, it's Rahm Emanuel after all. Ahem. Yesterday, I rashly predicted that President Obama would announce the nomination of Elizabeth Warren to head the newly-created Consumer Financial Protection Bureau today. Well, that one didn't happen, either, although Obama did walk right up to doing so in his press conference, but then he walked right back away from it as well, leaving nothing but confusion in his wake. So, having gone zero-for-two this week, we can definitively say that any delusions of grandeur we might have had were completely unfounded.
Just to set the record straight. Heh.
I don't think this is conclusive proof that the White House doesn't READ CW.COM..
It just means that, for whatever moronic reason, they decided not to follow your advice this time. :D
Their loss.. :D
Michale.....
I'm not saying anything 'til you congratulate me for my shiny new Huffington Post Pundit badge.
I'm not sure what this means, CB, but it sounds cool. Congrats!
Are you a token conservative? ;)
Given the current state of affairs, that oh so important INDEPENDENT voter would rather have NO ideas than a continuation of BAD, VERY BAD ideas.
I think this does one of the best jobs I've seen of summing up the Republican campaign strategy:
- Convince independents you have the moral high ground; this is why you hear so much talk about freedom, the good of the marketplace, liberty, etc.
- Don't talk about ideas because then it starts to look like you're saying the same thing as Republicans past
- Paint Democratic ideas as bad. Very bad. VERY, VERY BAD.
But I guess politics is kinda like the NFL. If you're able to run it up the middle. Keep running it up the middle.
How's that for a segue into the kickoff of football season :)
-David
David,
I think this does one of the best jobs I've seen of summing up the Republican campaign strategy:
- Convince independents you have the moral high ground; this is why you hear so much talk about freedom, the good of the marketplace, liberty, etc.
- Don't talk about ideas because then it starts to look like you're saying the same thing as Republicans past
- Paint Democratic ideas as bad. Very bad. VERY, VERY BAD.
The truth always works best in campaigns.. :D Well, usually.
In this case, the GOP doesn't have to work too hard to convince Independents that the Democrat's ideas are bad.
Independents already know this...
Sure, it would be really nice if the GOP had better plans...
But, right now, the GOP plan is to stop Democrats from further bankrupting this country.
And the vast majority of Independents and NPAs are on board with that.
But I guess politics is kinda like the NFL. If you're able to run it up the middle. Keep running it up the middle.
How's that for a segue into the kickoff of football season :)
Sports metaphors are always fun.. :D
Just waiting for the start of the JAGS game here.. :D
Michale.....
Michale.....
Michale -
Let me take a stab at it. I think you're (either intentionally or unintentionally, I have no idea) conflating "being for" and "standing up for your right to".
For example, there were many conflicted Democrats in the flag-burning hot-button-issue era (say, roughly the 1990s), but I bet you cannot find one quote by an elected Democrat back then which baldly states that they are "for" or "support" burning the flag. I bet that every single one of them says they support the "right" to burn a flag, but without once offering support for anyone who does so.
There is a difference. Now, I know some folks who might be inclined to torch a flag if they thought the situation demanded it, I'll admit. But I can support their right to do so, even if I think it's a stupid thing to do (would depend on the circumstances). Just like I'd support a Tea Partier's right to do the same thing, even if I thought that was a stupid thing to do, too. Same as I can support the right of the idiot in FL to torch a few Qurans on his own property -- while still condemning him for doing so.
There really are two issues. Just because you support someone's rights, doesn't mean you support their actions or their movement. I support the right of Tea Partiers to get out and march and make some noise. I think I've been pretty consistent on that, personally. But it doesn't mean I agree with them one tiny bit, just that I support everyone's right -- equally -- to get out and protest. Or "assemble peaceably" and "petition the government for redress." So I can cheer them on for protesting, even if I viciously attack their political positions.
Some might see it as "Orwellian doublethink" but to me, at least, there are two issues which remain separate. On the rights one, I'm pretty much an absolutist. On the "support" issue, I take it case by case.
I don't know if any of this helps or not, but I just thought I'd toss it into the mix.
-CW
CW,
Glad to read your thoughts on this. And you hit the nail on the head. This IS an issue of rights.
The Left wants to deny the RIGHT to burn a Koran to this loon down here in Florida.
Susan Estrich writes in her commentary that burning a Koran is akin to yelling FIRE in a crowded theater. This is a stretch and would open up a whole plethora of unintended consequences.
But my point is simple. The Left, in general, supports the RIGHT to burn an American Flag. Sure, there are specific people on the Left who do not, as you have pointed out. But, by and large, one of the very foundations of the Left's platform is supporting the right to burn an American flag in protest.
However, from reading other blogs and comments, in THIS case, the Left is totally against even the RIGHT to do it.. One comment from a reader in another blog suggested that some of these "freaks" should be "capped" so that the other "freaks" will take a lesson from that.
Get that?? These people who want to perform a legitimate protest should be killed so that others won't even think about protesting in this manner.
Another Lefty Blog'er/Dictator (the illogical one who banned me.. :D) pointed out gleefully how this FL loon's website was taken down. Of course, if it was HIS blog that was taken down for hateful speech (as it does constantly against conservatives and the GOP) this same blogger would scream hysterically about censorship and gestapo tactics!
These actions are, by far, the common theme running thru comments from the Left on this issue. Blatant and complete hypocrisy.
"I disagree strongly with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire
This is a concept that appears to be completely and utterly dead in this country today.
Now everyone knows that here at CW.COM, we are more reasoned and enlightened individuals who pride ourselves on logic and rational discussion... :D
But even here, it appears that some would want to deny the right because burning an American flag is much much different than burning a holy book. (as an aside, NYpoet & Kevin, if I misstated your position, please accept my apologies and feel free to correct me)
So, to sum up, it is this issue of the RIGHT to do A or B that is at the heart of my point.
As far as I have seen from the Left, it supports the right to do A (burning an American Flag) but does NOT support the right to do B (burn a Koran).
And this is blatant and indefensible hypocrisy..
There is a pattern developing whereas the Left is charging in to be religious warriors, defending a religion from the evil American public without even checking to see if such defense violates one of the Left's defining tenets....
Oh yea.. JAGS WON!!!!!! :D
Michale.....
Interesting anecdote regarding all this Free Speech discussion and being banned and such...
http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/offbeat/uk-teenager-banned-from-america-for-life-over-obscene-obama-email-091310
Apparently, if you call Obama a prick, you get banned from the US for life.
Wonder what would happen if I emailed Obama and told him he was a prick??
Deported??? :D
Michale.....
But, getting back to this issue of taxing the rich..
Again, let me point out that I am not the economist that most people are here..
But, it seems to me to be a pretty simple concept.
Let's say you own a business that makes $5 million dollars a year. You have had this business for 30 years and you employ, oh say, 50 people.
Now yer sitting on a hoard of cash.. For the sake of the argument, let's say 50 million dollars..
You want to expand your business and hire another 100 people. But you are waiting for the government to quit dicking around and make tax policy so you know how much you have to set aside for taxes. That's logical, right?? I mean, doesn't it make sense to wait and see what's going to happen before you rush in, spend 50 million dollars and then find out you are going to need it for taxes?? Makes sense, right?? Especially if you have investors who are breathing down your neck so THEY don't lose any money...
So, finally, the government lays out it's tax plan and you find out that you are going to have to pay tons more in new taxes...
So, you nix the idea for expansion and hiring more people and just put that money away to cover the taxes for the next 20 years or so...
All of that seems logical and rational, right??
It seems to me, business-ignorant that I am, that a very good case can be made for keeping the taxes low for businesses. Even if they make more than $250K a year...
Michale.....
Michale,
The problem with your tax example is that the business making 5 million per year is not going to be paying "tons more in new taxes" ... not by a long shot!
Do the math - what we are taling about here is an increase in taxes of about three to four percent.
This stuff is really not that complicated but those who are arguing for a permanent extension for all of the Bush tax cuts are attempting to make it so.
I'm not aware of any cogent, reality-based argument for extending the Bush tax cuts on the top earning businesses but I'm open to reading all about it if one exists.
Liz,
It's my understanding that, if the Bush tax cuts expire, those individuals and businesses who make more than 250K a year will see a tax increase.
The administration likes to tout the figure of "That the new taxes will only affect 3% of small businesses"..
That is a bogus figure because it counts anyone and everyone who ever filed as a business, because they sold some things on EBAY or CraigsList..
The fact is, the reinstatement of these taxes will affect almost 50% of small businesses...
And it's the small businesses that are the very backbone of private sector jobs..
In other words, the Obama administration is targeting for a tax increase almost half of the most successful of small businesses thereby PREVENTING them from hiring more people...
It seems to me that, by RAISING taxes on almost half of the small businesses, the administration is bringing about the very crisis that they hope to avoid..
Once again, one is left to wonder if Obama et al really WANTS to create jobs or not.
Because there really isn't any indication that he does...
Michale.....
Michale,
You know, it's really easy to distort the facts of this matter when the issue is not fully understood.
Very few people commenting in the blogosphere have an adequate understanding of what should be done about the Bush tax cuts.
Suffice to say that Geithner is on the right track and I hope he sets the president straight ... and soon!
The only distortion of facts have come from the Obama administration and Democrats when they try and claim that only 3% of businesses will be affected when, in actuality, it's 47% of businesses that will be hit with higher taxes...
Geithner has been on the "right track" for almost two years...
And yet, we're worse off now than before...
Gods help is if the Obama administration continues on this "right track".....
Michale.....
But even here, it appears that some would want to deny the right because burning an American flag is much much different than burning a holy book. (as an aside, NYpoet & Kevin, if I misstated your position, please accept my apologies and feel free to correct me)
apology accepted ;)
i think the quran burner does have the right to burn anything he pays for, just like imam whats-his-face has the right to build a mosque wherever zoning laws allow. however, everyone else has the right to our own free expression on both matters. whether or not we support either individual's political view is irrelevant to their civil liberties, which should not be in question. in a sense, we're fortunate to have both issues come up in such close proximity, in order to draw a parallel. in my view it would be the height of hypocrisy to be for the rights of one and opposed to the rights of the other.
the previous point being a given, i don't think flag burning and book burning are equal. book burning is not just symbolism, it's a form of coercive censorship, while flags are solely symbolic. let's assume the books being burned were something like the kkk handbook; in my view this would still be worse than flag burning, because it goes against the american value of a free market of ideas, good or bad. furthermore, book burning has a special association with the holocaust that flag burning does not.
none of this means i believe either ought to be illegal - just publicly disdained and decried, to varying degrees.
nypoet22,
Nicely phrased. I agree with all your points. My original comment was merely answering Michale's question of what the difference was between the two acts. I thought they weren't really comparable and said so. I too should have made the holocaust connection. I never suggested either activity should be banned, just observed that if a stack of Bibles was burned the religious Right would lose their minds. God forbid (pun intended) that followers of Islam should be offended by the burning of their Holy book.
OK, kewl..
So, as is common here in CW land, logic and rational discourse win the day.. :D
We are all agreed that Looney Tunes down here in Florida is perfectly within his rights to burn the Koran and no one can say dick about his RIGHT to burn the book...
Common ground is such a wonderful thing...
Kevin, I don't mind that Muslims are offended if their holy book is burn..
My problem is how they express that offense.. By burning and pillaging and butchering and beheading people, they PROVE beyond any doubt that everything said against Islam is true and factual...
My simple point is that there are people who are as devoted to their flag as religious people are devoted to their holy book...
And NO ONE has the right to sit in judgment and tell those people that they are wrong and the religious fanatics are right...
For those (like me) who are religiously agnostic, one is as bad as the other...
That's a simple difference of opinion.. But as long as we agree on the RIGHT to do it, I can live with that... :D
Michale......
Kevin,
I never suggested either activity should be banned, just observed that if a stack of Bibles was burned the religious Right would lose their minds.
{{cough}} {cough} US Military burns bibles {{cough}} {{cough}}
http://www.examiner.com/christian-in-louisville/military-burns-bibles-sent-to-troops-afghanistan
:D
I don't think I heard a peep out of anyone over this until Muslims around the world got all cranky about their Koran being burned..
Regardless, the simple fact is this...
Yes, you can express your anger at your holy book being burned. Yes, you can get mad and protest and write letters to your representatives...
But what you CANNOT do is hurt other people or destroy property just because someone doesn't treat your holy book with the same respect that you would..
It's not allowed in a civilized society.
It's really that simple.
Michale.....