Program Note
Our apologies, but for the second time this month, there will be an interruption in columns here at ChrisWeigant.com. This time around, we'll be traveling to the Netroots Nation blogger convention for the remainder of this week.
What this means is no column today, and quite likely no column tomorrow. I can't promise anything for the rest of the week, but if I can find the time to write and to post, perhaps I'll write down a few observations from the conference.
The good news is that this will be the last of these interruptions in service, and starting next Monday, our regular schedule of one column posted late every weekday will return on a regular basis.
We do apologize for the intermittent service this month, and ask our faithful readers to bear with us until next Monday. Thanks in advance for being understanding.
-- Chris Weigant
Follow Chris on Twitter: @ChrisWeigant
You're welcome ... have fun!
Have fun @ NetRoots, CW! :D Hopefully it won't be as exciting as LAST time, eh? :D
I wonder if the delegates will be discussing how President Obama has launched more wars in more countries than any previous Nobel Peace Prize Laurette in history? :D
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/national-security/cia-to-operate-drones-over-yemen/2011/06/13/AG7VyyTH_story.html
Michale....
Or, they can talk about how Obama promised to end the Special Interest's/MoneyMaker's hold on government..
Overall, 184 of 556, or about one-third of Obama bundlers or their spouses joined the administration in some role. But the percentages are much higher for the big-dollar bundlers. Nearly 80 percent of those who collected more than $500,000 for Obama took “key administration posts,” as defined by the White House. More than half the 24 ambassador nominees who were bundlers raised $500,000.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0611/56993.html
Howz that Hopey Changey thing going?? :^/
Michale.....
Howz that Hopey Changey thing going?? :^/
I've missed you, Michale.
I'd have to say that its going much better than here in Ohio under one of Wall Street's finest.
-David
I've missed you, Michale.
Peggy: "Did you miss me dear??"
Al: "With every shot, so far."
:D
I'd have to say that its going much better than here in Ohio under one of Wall Street's finest.
You mean there are places that are actually WORSE off??
WOW...
So, ya think this country can stand 4 more years of Obama???
Michale.....
So, ya think this country can stand 4 more years of Obama?
I think it would be better than bringing in someone who's big idea for improving America is to sell it to the highest bidder.
This is what's happening in Ohio. And interestingly enough, we never heard anything about this in the run-up to the election.
-David
I think it would be better than bringing in someone who's big idea for improving America is to sell it to the highest bidder.
Uhh...
I guess you didn't read that link...
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0611/56993.html
Obama *IS* selling America to the highest bidder..
Or, in this case, the highest donor...
Why don't we all vote "NONE OF THE ABOVE" a'la Brewster's Millions?? :D
Michale.....
Well, at least SOMEONE is doing well in this recession... :^/
Pelosi's wealth grows by 62 percent
http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/801-economy/166599-pelosis-net-worth-rises-62-percent-
She ain't feeling any pain...
Michale.....
As far as Obama violating the War Powers Act??
Obama's response is that American Forces are not involved in Libya...
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/16/us/politics/16powers.html?_r=2
I tell ya, it's gonna be any time that Obama starts arguing what the meaning of "is" is....
Would the Left have let Bush get away with such carp???
Michale.....
Well, ain't that just a pisser!!!
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Possible-Al-Qaida-Hit-List-Targets-Specific-Americans.html
Al Qaeda puts out a hit list naming specific Americans to be assassinated and *I* am not on the list!!
Sum' Beach!! :D
Michale.....
Why don't we all vote "NONE OF THE ABOVE" a'la Brewster's Millions?? :D
Because that wouldn't have any effect.
But I understand, you want to discourage Democrats from voting so Republicans will win. This is the whole idea behind the "Obama is bad" marketing. Dems tend to win more when there is high voter turnout so work to discourage as many voters as possible.
Me, I'd rather vote for the party that is more likely to change things. Progress is being made, we just have to keep at it.
This is the type of thing we need to do more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/15/chuck-schumer-progressives_n_877042.html
Sorry to hear you're not Al Qaeda's worst enemy but that's probably a good thing for you :)!
-David
Here's someone who says it much, much better than me and pretty much has the best explanation of American politics I've seen:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/06/16/985791/-Howard-Zinn-Explains-Barack-Obama----And-Everything-Else-About-American-Politics?via=siderec
It's really pretty simple. He says it in the last sentence:
"The establishment isn't going away. Neither are the tea partiers. What happens if you stay home and pout?
Nothing good."
-David
But I understand, you want to discourage Democrats from voting so Republicans will win.
Actually, I want to discourage Democrats from whining and crying about how bad and corrupt Obama is but yet they go ahead and vote for him anyways...
This is the whole idea behind the "Obama is bad" marketing.
It's not "marketing"... Obama IS bad...
Can you name anything that Obama has done good in the last couple months..
Bin Laden.. I'll give you that...
Anything else???
Dems tend to win more when there is high voter turnout
So, might makes right???
Me, I'd rather vote for the party that is more likely to change things. Progress is being made, we just have to keep at it.
And that progress would be..... what exactly??
Unemployment is up. Job market is in the toilet, housing market is worse...
Where is this "progress" you speak of???
"Who is this Vod Kaknockers you speak of?"
-Jake, TWO AND A HALF MEN
:D
This is the type of thing we need to do more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/15/chuck-schumer-progressives_n_877042.html
Yer an endangered speices, David.. Someone who still reads HuffPo... :D
Sorry to hear you're not Al Qaeda's worst enemy but that's probably a good thing for you :)!
Yea.. One judge of character is the enemies we keep... :D
On the PLUS side, Palin sure had the Left chasing their tails for a bit there...
Laughed my ass off seeing the MSM and the Left on their snipe hunt... :D
Michale.....
Where is this "progress" you speak of???
I found it!!!
White House spokesman Jay Carney stated that the administration had created 2.1 private-sector jobs..
Now THAT'S change you can believe in!!!! :D
Michale.....
Where is this "progress" you speak of?
The progress is that we're not doing as much of this as we would under conservatives:
1) Tax cuts for the rich
2) Repeal regulations
3) Break the unions - end minimum wage and worker rights
4) Subsidize big industry
5) Redistributing wealth upwards
That's the Republican plan. Basically, the same plan that caused the economic crisis.
This is what got us where we are. This is what's going on in Ohio & Wisconsin w/ Republicans back in power.
And I don't believe its good for America.
-David
The progress is that we're not doing as much of this as we would under conservatives:
And yet, the country is MUCH worse off than it was under conservatives...
What could a logical person deduce from such a fact?
That maybe, just maybe, shoveling billions and billions of dollars, dollars we DON'T have, is NOT the solution to these problems....
You may say that the conservative way doesn't work and you may be right at that..
But you simply CANNOT claim that the "progressive" way works any better..
The current conditions prove that the progressive way makes things worse...
Michale.....
And yet, the country is MUCH worse off than it was under conservatives.
Really?
An economic crisis. Record deficits. Stagnant wages. Record redistributing of wealth upwards. 8 years of costly war.
And you want to go back to this?
But you simply CANNOT claim that the "progressive" way works any better.
If you look back to the times in history that are the best, they are the times where we enjoyed a large middle class.
That's what made America great. Not supply side economics. Not trickle down theory.
It was corporations willing to pay good wages and share the wealth.
It's gonna take more than one term to turn around 30 years of war against the middle class.
Unfortunately, I think it's gonna take the rich getting a lot richer and the poor getting a lot poorer before anything turns around.
Cheers
-David
An economic crisis. Record deficits. Stagnant wages. Record redistributing of wealth upwards. 8 years of costly war.
And you want to go back to this?
We ARE back at that....
How is Obama's wars any different than Bush's wars??
What was the Unemployment under Bush??
What is it under Obama??
Do you HONESTLY think we're better off now than we were under Bush??
Michale.....
OK, too tired to post an article.
Random thoughts from Minneapolis:
We first visited the biggest tourist draw in the city. I am speaking, of course, of the Mary Tyler Moore statue. Google it if you don't know what I'm talking about.
Wonderful city, friendly beyond belief. I had forgotten how pleasant Midwestern cities are. And clean!
We walked down to the pedestrian-friendly district, and hadn't stood around for more than about 30 seconds when a helpful information officer came up and asked us if he could answer any questions or give us any other help. This has got to be a first for me, in the downtown of ANY American city. As I said, helpful beyond belief.
I had forgotten that The Onion is published here, and free paper copies are available everywhere. Sweet!
Rickshaw cabs (bicycle powered) are everywhere, although everything so far is so close together that I haven't had an occasion to use one.
As for the conference, so far so good. We're off shortly to the PCCC party, which was the high point of last year. And, yes, Michale, I am hoping this year is not so "eventful" as last (we flew this time, instead of driving, so hopefully this will remain true!).
I'm sure all the speeches and whatnot are online, so if anyone's interested (Howard Dean and Russ Feingold spoke tonight), check it out.
More later, when I have the time. The biggest problem here is finding any spare time to do things like go online!
:-)
-CW
PS. Play nice, y'all...
Glad ta hear yer having fun, CW! :D
PS. Play nice, y'all...
Always!! :D
Michale.....
We first visited the biggest tourist draw in the city. I am speaking, of course, of the Mary Tyler Moore statue. Google it if you don't know what I'm talking about.
I thought the Larry Craig bathroom at the Minneapolis airport was the biggest tourist draw! :)
Ok, ok. Being silly. Anyways, glad to hear you're having a good time, CW! At some point, you'll have to enlighten us more!
We ARE back at that.
I'd say we're still recovering from that.
Do you HONESTLY think we're better off now than we were under Bush?
Yes. Way better off.
While you're right that things are still tough, the only thing I can see Republicans offering is a return to "trickle down theory," deregulation, and privatization.
I can't see why anyone would want to go back to these policies. Oh, except for the large multinational corporations which would profit immensely from government handouts.
Redistributing wealth upwards or reverse socialism.
Do you see them offering any different ideas?
I'm always listening, Michale, but so far it looks like more of the same. This is also why you won't hear Republicans talk much about their ideas; instead, they'll focus on Obama.
-David
Some interesting studies and polls out today...
Land of the Free? New York and California come out at the bottom of individual freedoms study
dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2003910/New-York-New-Jersey-California-come-individual-freedoms-study.html#ixzz1PWbsXJkh
The color-coded map is a real eye-opener.. The most liberal states in the country are also the most restrictive as far as personal freedoms go...
The most conservative states are the states that allow the most personal freedoms.
Howz THAT for irony, eh!?? :D
"Define irony. Bunch of idiots dancing on a plane to a song made famous by a band that died in a plane crash. "
-Steve Buscemi, CON AIR
:D
Liberal Media Distorts News Bias
usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2011/06/16/book-liberal-media-distorts-news-bias
This study shows that the vast majority of the media has a far Left bias and that assumed conservative news outlets like Fox News and Drudge are actually centrist with Drudge actually leaning a tad Left..
It makes sense. If you have a room full of 7' or 8' people, someone who is 6'6" will appear "short" even though they are actually on the tall end of the spectrum.
Since practically every major media outlet in the country is way WAY Left, a centrist media outlet would appear quite conservative...
And finally,
2012 Voter Preferences for Obama, "Republican" Remain Close
Forty-four percent prefer the Republican; 39%, Obama
gallup.com/poll/148076/2012-Voter-Preferences-Obama-Republican-Remain-Close.aspx
Granted, we're more than a year away from the election and literally anything can happen.... But the number one concern of Americans today is the economy. And that will unlikely be any better come election day... Things don't look too good for President Obama..
"Fascinating...."
-Commander Spock
:D
Michale.....
I'd say we're still recovering from that.
Ya have a funny definition of "recovering".. :D
Unemployment is worse then before. Housing market is way worse then before..
If this is a "recovery", then I am Jennifer Lopez... :D
I'm always listening, Michale, but so far it looks like more of the same. This is also why you won't hear Republicans talk much about their ideas; instead, they'll focus on Obama.
Actually, this time around it's the Democratic Party that is the Party of No Ideas...
One only has to remember the recent Medicare discussions to realize that...
Remember Nancy Pelosi's statements?
"We have a plan. It's called 'Medicare' and it's doing fine."
As for making it about Obama, of course the GOP will make it about Obama. Just as the Left made it about Bush in the last presidential election... Just as the Left has made everything about Bush SINCE the last presidential election..
But I am curious as to why you see Obama as the best choice. Especially in light of the fact that he is the polar opposite of some of the very foundations of the Democratic Party.
He is in bed with Corporate & Special Interests.
He is an even bigger "war monger" than Bush was.
He continued and expanded on the very programs that earned Bush the "Hitler", Nazi and "War Criminal" moniker..
Hell, with Democrats like this, why do we need Republicans!? :D
Michale.....
Pretty good, Michale.
500 words and not a single one that answers the question: Do you see them offering any different ideas?
Let's see. You covered:
1. Blaming the media
2. Liberals wanting to take away your freedoms
3. Nancy Pelosi
4. And then once again, how bad Obama is
But nothing about what the GOP is offering different from trickle down economics, deregulation, and privatization.
But I am curious as to why you see Obama as the best choice.
I'll say it again. Because he is not pursuing deregulation, trickle down theory, and privatization.
He's had to make some compromises, but not anything near what Kasich is doing in Ohio or Walker is doing in Wisconsin.
Do I wish Obama was doing more? Of course. I've stated this on numerous occasions.
Back to the original question: Do you see conservatives offering any ideas that are different from deregulation, trickle down theory, or privatization?
-David
By the way, I'm being serious, Michale. I would love for there to be more options than horrible and not so bad.
That's why I'm looking forward to hearing about Netroots nation from CW and anyone else as I heard that one of the panel sessions was called:
"What to Do When the President is Just Not that Into You"
:)
-David
By the way, I'm being serious, Michale. I would love for there to be more options than horrible and not so bad.
What *I* don't understand is how you can label Obama as "not so bad" given his actions to date.
I mean, seriously... Thumbing his nose at Congress and the American people over Libya? What would your reaction if Bush had done in Iraq what Obama is doing over Libya?
The Left would have been screaming IMPEACH to the high heavens. We both know that to be true. And they would have had a good point..
So, why is it when Obama does things that are so much worse than Bush EVER did, Obama is still "not so bad"???
Back to the original question: Do you see conservatives offering any ideas that are different from deregulation, trickle down theory, or privatization?
You know I don't know enough about economics to hazard a guess as to what the right course of action would be...
But I have enough common sense to know that you simply CAN'T spend spend SPEND your way out of a financial hole...
It's simply not possible...
My only point is that things are much much worse under Obama.
This is an undeniable fact..
That's why I'm looking forward to hearing about Netroots nation from CW and anyone else as I heard that one of the panel sessions was called:
"What to Do When the President is Just Not that Into You"
Yea, I read Taylor Marsh's commentary from NRN....
But, it's the same ole same ole... Progressives will whine and cry and bitch and moan and boast empty and hollow threats.
But, in the end, they will follow Obama like meek sheep saying, "Please sir, can I have some more?"
They put ideology before the welfare of the country...
Michale.....
This is an undeniable fact.
An undeniable fact is that a circle is round :)
You know I don't know enough about economics to hazard a guess as to what the right course of action would be.
I admire your honesty here. Seriously. It's statements like this that you don't get from the "religious" on either side.
But I have enough common sense to know that you simply CAN'T spend spend SPEND your way out of a financial hole.
In a financial crisis like we had, markets tend to overreact with the pendulum moving from one extreme to the other. You go from a state where credit is easy to get and anyone can get it, to a state where no one can get it.
This is why the government stepped in to get the wheels moving until we hit the point where the private sector can get back on its feet.
We saw this happen in the Great Depression and it did indeed get us out of a financial hole. I know it sounds counterintuitive, but macroeconomics is a different ballgame than microeconomics. There's similarities, but the analogies don't always hold.
They put ideology before the welfare of the country.
I could just as easily say the same thing about you, but I know it wouldn't be true. We just have a different vision of what's best for the country.
Bon weekend my friend! I am off to get a drink ...
-David
Just for the record, by no means does any of this mean I'm a huge Obama fan.
But I think this "Everything is horrible because of Obama" story conservatives are hawking is tremendously overblown.
But I think this "Everything is horrible because of Obama" story conservatives are hawking is tremendously overblown.
No more than the "Everything is horrible because of Bush" story that Liberals hawked during the Bush years.... :D
Ya see, it works both ways..
But I would say that Obama's policies are very wrong and it's making things worse instead of better...
And the facts bear this out...
Michale.....
I could just as easily say the same thing about you, but I know it wouldn't be true. We just have a different vision of what's best for the country.
:D
But here's the thing...
What if progressives followed thru with their threats and withhold their votes??
Sure, in the short term it might elect a GOP president.
But progressives need to look at the long term if they want their agenda to succeed.
And the long term benefits would be twofold..
One, it would really show the American people how utterly inept the GOP is and how they should NEVER be allowed to govern...
And second, it will put Dem politicians on notice that the progressives vote cannot be taken for granted. So, the NEXT election that rolls around, Dems will actually fear that progressives really WILL stay home or really WILL vote Republican if pushed.. And that fear will result in Dem politicians that really are more progressive...
The logic is impeccable...
Of course, there is a risk that, once a GOP'er IS in the White House, he might actually do the right thing for the country and good things might happen as a result..
.............
Awwwww, who am I kidding!? THAT could NEVER happen!!! :D
Michale.....
Michale,
I don't know where you were in the fall and early winter of 2008 during the waning days of the Bush administration - perhaps you were hanging loose in Hawai'i? - but I have a news flash for you ...
Things were much, much, much worse in this time period than they were at any time since Obama/Biden/Geithner started to put things back on the right track. Of that, there simply can be no debate without ignoring/revising recent history.
Things were much, much, much worse in this time period than they were at any time since Obama/Biden/Geithner started to put things back on the right track.
By what standard?
Unemployment was lower than it is today.. The housing market was in shambles, true but today the housing market is is lower than Great Depression levels..
By any standard whatsoever, 2008 was a rosy Sunday afternoon in the park compared to today..
The Obama Administration had one of the biggest locks on government that has ever been seen in the history of this country..
And look at the mess they made with it..
Michale.....
No more than the "Everything is horrible because of Bush" story that Liberals hawked during the Bush years.... :D
Except there's a major difference. With President Bush, it was pretty easy to link the bad consequences with decisions Bush made (and Clinton compromises and the agenda conservatives have pushed for 30 years).
1. War in Iraq = huge costs, no benefits, overextended military, taking eye off of real terrorists and domestic issues
2. Tax cuts for rich = large deficits, less revenue, no new jobs, corporate welfare
3. Deregulation of financial industry = financial crisis
Bush seemed like a decent guy, but he believed in deregulation, trickle down theory, and privatization as if they were a religion.
With President Obama, where's the link?
Health care hasn't even taken effect so I'm not sure how you can even know if it would be good or not. And there's no decision I can see that Obama has made that has negatively impacted our economy.
It's just overblown marketing. I keep looking, but I can't seem to find any conservatives who get any deeper than "Obama = bad" because he's "taking away our freedoms" or "he's socialist" without any real explanation.
When the biggest argument someone has is "he's evil" or "he's socialist" or anything of the like, it's best to look deeper.
I'm always hopeful so will keep looking but to date, I don't see anything.
-David
Michale,
By what standard?
By the same standard that measures the success or failure of my retirement savings plan, you know.
By any standard whatsoever, 2008 was a rosy Sunday afternoon in the park compared to today...
Things were anything but rosy back then as I lost about 40% of the value of my RSP. Once Obama/Biden/Geithner started to work on pulling the economy back from the edge of complete collapse, then the slow trek back towards rosy began. And, steady, albeit predictably slow and uneven, progress continues.
This is not rocket science, after all. By the fall of 2008 and early winter of 2009, after a decade of policies emanating from the Republican cult of economic failure, the US fiscal position, economy and financial system were circling the drain, and threatening to take the rest of the global economy and financial system with it.
You live in the real world, Michale. You know very well that the Great Recession of 2007/2008 left an unprecedented breadth and depth of destruction - on the order of magnitude of the Augean stables, no less - and will take many, many years to rectify.
One thing is for sure, we are not going to recover by implementing policies that got us into the mess in the first place.
David,
I don't suppose that one of the esteemed panel sessions at Net Roots Nation was called anything remotely resembling, What to do when the president et al. are doing their jobs and the rest of us are just too into ourselves?
David,
With President Obama, where's the link?
1. War in Iraq = huge costs, no benefits, overextended military, taking eye off of real terrorists and domestic issues
War in Libya with the same results..
2. Tax cuts for rich = large deficits, less revenue, no new jobs, corporate welfare
Tax cuts that Obama has extended...
3. Deregulation of financial industry = financial crisis
That was due to Democrats as much as Republicans and Bush..
You really haven't named anything that Bush has done that Obama hasn't done or continued..
Ergo, saying that Bush was responsible for everything horrible is as (in)accurate as saying that Obama is responsible for everything horrible..
Blaming a political Party for piling on an opposing Party's president is like blaming the sun for rising and setting..
It's what the sun does.
There's a story I heard as a child, a parable, and I never forgot it: A scorpion was walking along the bank of a river, wondering how to get to the other side. Suddenly he saw a fox. He asked the fox to take him on his back across the river. The fox said, "No. If I do that, you'll sting me, and I'll drown." The scorpion assured him, "If I did that, we'd both drown." So the fox thought about it, finally agreed. So the scorpion climbed up on his back, and the fox began to swim. But halfway across the river, the scorpion stung him. As the poison filled his veins, the fox turned to the scorpion and said, "Why did you do that? Now you'll drown too." "I couldn't help it," said the scorpion. "It's my nature."
-Chakotay, STAR TREK VOYAGER, Scorpion Part I
It's just overblown marketing. I keep looking, but I can't seem to find any conservatives who get any deeper than "Obama = bad" because he's "taking away our freedoms" or "he's socialist" without any real explanation.
Yes there are people like that.. Just as there were people on the Left who were no deeper than "Bush = bad" because he was "taking away our freedoms" or he was a "war criminal".
But that doesn't mean that there are not real and tangible reasons why Obama's leadership is hurting this country...
There are, and I have pointed many of them out.
Liz,
There IS no "recovery"...
That's my whole point. Sure, you can point to one slightly up thing here, or a slightly up thing there, but when looking at the big picture, there is no "recovery"..
We are a year into the "summer of recovery"... Yet unemployment is up, the housing market is way down and jobs are nowhere to be found...
Things are worse under Obama/Biden/Geither and there is absolutely NO sign they will get better for years to come..
No incumbent president has been re-elected with Unemployment over 7.2%.. It's likely Unemployment will be back over 10% by the Election Day..
Doesn't bode well for Obama...
The Independents won't be fooled a second time by Mr Hope & Change.
"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
-Scotty, STAR TREK, Friday's Child
although, Pavel Chekov cliams the saying was "inwented in Russia"... :D
Michale.....
Interesting article on the economy...
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9b998ed0-9a9e-11e0-bab2-00144feab49a.html#axzz1Po1lQumI
Michale.....
Ergo, saying that Bush was responsible for everything horrible is as (in)accurate as saying that Obama is responsible for everything horrible.
Well, I wouldn't exactly agree with that. But I would say that its not just Bush. What is responsible are the policies and ideology. The philosophy of supply-side economics. The philosophy of our country as a police state.
And the choice we have right now is between the people who created these ideas and still believe in them whole hog and the people who are trying to change them.
That's why I'm going with the people who are trying to change them.
It's gonna take time though. Conservatives have had 30 years to push their ideas and they've figured out a pretty good plan for implementing them.
-David
Liz,
I don't suppose that one of the esteemed panel sessions at Net Roots Nation was called anything remotely resembling, What to do when the president et al. are doing their jobs and the rest of us are just too into ourselves?
LOL. Now that could be an interesting panel. I hope you mean that the fight we should be fighting is the fight to win over people with a core set of ideas and that this fight is going to take a lot more than just electing a President :)
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/nato-acknowledges-civilian-deaths-tripoli-strike-195841256.html
Amazing...
Civilians killed while Obama insists we are not at war in Libya....
And the Left just gobbles it up and remains silent..
Where is Code Pink?? Where is MoveOn.org??
Oh, that's right. They are not anti-war, not really...
They are just anti-Bush...
At least Bush had the integrity to call a spade a spade...
Michale.....
Well, I wouldn't exactly agree with that. But I would say that its not just Bush. What is responsible are the policies and ideology. The philosophy of supply-side economics. The philosophy of our country as a police state.
But the point that you don't see is that those philosophies are NOT the sole purview of the Right..
Examples...
Democrats were as much at fault as Republicans for the deregulation push.
Obama continued and expanded practically ALL of the policies that you claim are responsible for the "police state" mentality..
That's my point..
You push Democrats as the better alternative to Republicans but history, FACTUAL history shows that Democrats are as bad as Republicans.
At least with Republicans, you have a modicum of honesty about it..
"That's who we are! Live with it!!"
Where as with Democrats, they claim,
"That's NOT who we are!!!"
and then turn around an be exactly what they claim they are not..
Who was it that profited most during this great depression??
Democrats...
And the choice we have right now is between the people who created these ideas and still believe in them whole hog and the people who are trying to change them.
But that's my point. Democrats like Pelosi, Reid and Obama, they pay lip service to trying to change them.. But they continue on the same country-destroying path and personally profit..
I would rather have a politician who knows and admits that he/she is an asshole rather than some two-faced liar who blows smoke up my ass while he/she is screwing me over...
Rather indelicately put, but you get the idea... :D
That's why Palin holds great appeal for me and many Independents and NPAs.. She makes no apologies for how she is. She basically says, "This is who I am. If ya don't like it, shove it.."
I love that! :D
Michale.....
That's why Palin holds great appeal for me and many Independents and NPAs.. She makes no apologies for how she is. She basically says, "This is who I am. If ya don't like it, shove it.."
And, I might add, that is why the Left hates Palin so much.
Because she acts EXACTLY as the Left would like THEIR leaders to act...
Michale.....
On another note, it looks like Rick Perry has been reading CW.COM!! :D
“Our opponents on the left are never going to like us, so let’s stop trying to curry favor with them,”
I seem to recall many of ya'all here expressing that same sentiment about the Right.. :D
Looks like Perry is a CW.COM fanboi! :D
Michale.....
I think Perry is especially enamoured with everything that you write at CW.com, Michale. :)
I think Perry is especially enamoured with everything that you write at CW.com, Michale. :)
Awwwww p'shaw.. yer just saying that... :D
Michale....
Oh, I mean that sincerely. I'm not even trying to be facetious here ...
Micahle,
Is it hard to breath when you're enveloped within the growth-choking confines of the Republican cult of economic failure? I worry about you in there ...
Sorry Michale ...
Hey, Chris ... can we get an edit function around here already? The Huffington Post has one now, after all. It needs some work, but still ... :)
Liz,
Is it hard to breath when you're enveloped within the growth-choking confines of the Republican cult of economic failure? I worry about you in there ...
Actually, being an NPA is not confining at all.. :D
I can pick and choose which ideology is the most logical, rational and effective....
The old Republican ways don't work. The new Democrat ways certainly don't work..
So, it's time to ditch ALL ideology and go with what DOES work...
Michale.....
Which would be what, exactly?
You know, Michale, as far as the economy is concerned there is a great deal of evidence that what the Clinton administration did versus what the Bush/Cheney administration did, vis-a-vis tax and spending policy, to indicate that the Democrats know how to implement a pro-growth strategy and the Republicans do not.
Just compare and contrast the last twenty years or so to see what works and what does not.
As for the current economic situation, I'm not convinced that you fully appreciate how destructive the Great Recession really was, what caused it, or how long it will take to fully recover from it. This was NOT just another run-of-the-mill economic downturn, after all.
You know, Michale, as far as the economy is concerned there is a great deal of evidence that what the Clinton administration did versus what the Bush/Cheney administration did, vis-a-vis tax and spending policy, to indicate that the Democrats know how to implement a pro-growth strategy and the Republicans do not.
The *only* reason that the Clinton administration did so well with the economy was due to the Dot Com bubble. It was an outlier of the largest magnitude.
As such, it's impossible to form any substantially accurate economic hypothesis based on the Clinton administration.
Just like 9/11 with the Bush Administration. It was such a large outlier than any theories are not work the electrons they are displayed on...
Just compare and contrast the last twenty years or so to see what works and what does not.
Not possible...
Too many random events that had a gross impact on the economy...
As for the current economic situation, I'm not convinced that you fully appreciate how destructive the Great Recession really was, what caused it, or how long it will take to fully recover from it. This was NOT just another run-of-the-mill economic downturn, after all.
Then that should have been made clear at the outset.. But Obama stated that the Stimulus would keep unemployment down..
It did not...
It's clear that the policies of Bush and Obama has royally screwed the American people...
Better to have let the whole thing collapse.. If that had happened, we would be well on the way to a REAL recovery instead of looking at a couple more decades of limping along with no real recovery in sight.
I am not the economist that ya'all are. Ya'all have probably forgotten more about economics than I could ever hope to know..
But I do know common sense... And common sense dictates that the FIRST thing you do when in a financial hole is to STOP DIGGING..
The Obama administration not only failed to STOP DIGGING, they brought in heavy equipment to dig faster and deeper...
And that is why Obama is likely to be a one-termer..
Because there is no way, no how this economy will be better by election day.
And, fairly or not, Obama will get the blame...
Michale....
You're the ultimate outlier, Michale! You may choose to ignore the overwhelming evidence that demonstrates what constitutes pro-growth policies and what does not but, you will do so at your own peril.
And, I don't know enough about economics to have forgotten very much at all. But, I got myself a real quick education after my poor RSP got a little poorer in the fall/winter of 2008/2009, let me tell you. :) Oh, yes, I can laugh now ...
David,
LOL. Now that could be an interesting panel. I hope you mean that the fight we should be fighting is the fight to win over people with a core set of ideas and that this fight is going to take a lot more than just electing a President :)
Yeah, I think that's what I meant, more or less. :)
I would rather have a politician who knows and admits that he/she is an asshole rather than some two-faced liar who blows smoke up my ass while he/she is screwing me over.
Sorry 'bout that, Michale. If you ever want to come over to the dark side instead of fighting for assholes, let us know.
It's not an easy fight though. Corporations have a lot of money and they give to Democrats too because they know all politicians need money to win elections. That's why I think people like Russ Feingold have the right idea when they say the money isn't worth it.
If Dems stood on principle, eventually they might not need the money. But in the short term, they'll lose a lot of elections. It's getting to a point though where it might be worth it.
If Democrats would turn down the corporate money, would you consider coming over to the dark side? (This might be a safe bet as they probably never would, but just for the sake of argument.) We'd be happy to have you.
-David
David,
If Democrats would turn down the corporate money, would you consider coming over to the dark side? (This might be a safe bet as they probably never would, but just for the sake of argument.) We'd be happy to have you.
You mean, if Democrats starting working for the betterment of the country rather than the betterment of the Democratic Party, would I consider voting Democrat?
Abso-frakin'-loutly...
On another note, this post was supposed to be posted on Sunday morning, but a glitch prevented it...
Considering what David just posted, I think it's still relevant so I am reposting it...
REPOST
Normally, I don't like to drag other commentaries into discussions, but since TM censors her site over there, the only place I CAN discuss it is here...
But mainly because it has to do with something that was discussed above. The actions (rather the IN-actions) of the progressive movement.
Progressive Notes: CPC to Tour America for People’s Budget, Full Employment Act, Boxer Tells It and Other Happenings
http://tinyurl.com/68t5q2z
I like to read Taylor Marsh because she lays into President Obama even more than I do.. :D But the current commentary from NRN is a prime example of why progressives fail at every turn..
They are very grandiose about "movements" and "nation tours" but they rarely can generate the passion to follow thru and actually influence events and people. The 2008 Presidential Election being the notable exception..
The commenter says something along the lines that if they (the progressives) speak loud enough, they can get "real" progressives elected to office.
But, what the progressives don't realize is that, once a "real" progressive is elected, their rose-colored blinders come off and they see the world for how it really is and they see that it is completely incompatible with the progressive agenda..
One only has to see the rise and fall of the progressive excitement when Obama was elected president to recognize the pattern...
And that pattern replays itself over and over again. The progressive movement gets all excited that a "real" progressive is elected to office... But then either the elected progressive loses their "faith" and becomes the scorn of the progressive movement or else the elected progressive valiantly tries to put forth the progressive agenda only to be resoundingly defeated in the next election.
This is due to one simple fact.
America is a center-right country. As such it is simply not compatible with the progressive agenda.
No where is this more apparent than the issue of Voter ID... Progressives want to do away with ALL Voter ID requirements...
Why?? Because that will mean that illegals and those not allowed to vote could get away with voting. Further, the old adage "vote early and vote often" would become the norm with elections.
Now the US, being the center-right country that it is, is a nation of laws. And the vast majority of Americans don't really have a problem with requiring that everyone who is allowed to vote should have to prove that by showing an ID.. I mean, seriously?? It's a no-brainer..
Voting is not a right, it is a privilege. It's a privilege that can be taken away, under certain circumstances. Now, if it is "inconvenient" for someone to get an ID, then that is just too damn bad. If a person wants to vote then they have to have an ID. It's that simple. If said person can get out and wait in line at a voting booth then they can get out and wait in line at the DMV...
This idea that Voter ID is a bad thing is complete and utter felgercarb.
My whole point in this....
"I am analyzing, not point making"
-Spock, STAR TREK The Enemy Within
:D
.... is that, for the progressive movement to survive it has to realize that it's agenda is not compatible with the ideology of the United States.. It must learn that just because they WANT something to be it does not necessarily follow that it WILL be.
In short, progressives need to change because this country is unlikely to..
On the other hand, if they changed, then I guess they wouldn't be progressives any more, now would they? :D
What's that old saying?? When someone is young and idealistic they are liberals/progressives? When they are older and more wise, they become conservatives?? :D
Sorry for the length of this. I had an hour to kill before getting ready for work this morning. :D
Oh and... Though I have never been, nor ever will likely be, the poster-child for such sentiment.....
Happy Dad's Day to all you Dads out there.. :D
Michale.....
Sorry 'bout that, Michale. If you ever want to come over to the dark side instead of fighting for assholes, let us know.
You miss my point.
They BOTH are assholes..
It's just that Republicans at least admit it and I respect that kind of honesty..
Democrats are assholes AND bald-faced liars. Which makes them tons worse..
For the record, I am referring to Republican and Democrat POLITICIANS, not rank and file Americans....
Michale.....
But, what the progressives don't realize is that, once a "real" progressive is elected, their rose-colored blinders come off and they see the world for how it really is and they see that it is completely incompatible with the progressive agenda.
Interestingly enough, I posted a slightly different interpretation on this topic above.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/06/16/985791/-Howard-Zinn-Explains-Barack-Obama----And-Everything-Else-About-American-Politics?via=siderec
Here's the relevant quote:
the President, to win the election, needed the support of a broad coalition of people. However, "The day after his election, the size of his majority is almost -- if not entirely -- irrelevant to his ability to govern the country. What counts then is his ability to mobilize support from the leaders of key institutions in a society and government. . . . This coalition must include key people in Congress, the executive branch, and the private-sector 'establishment.'"
That is ... anyone who is elected President needs the establishment to govern. Primarily, the corporate business establishment.
Republicans represent this corporate business establishment lock, stock, and barrel. The lies they tell are the trickle down lies - your life is going to get better if we help these corporations.
Democrats try to balance business interests with the interests of the people. So they serve two different bosses. But at least the people have a seat at the table.
What they need to do a better job of is explaining this balance and how consumers are needed just as much as producers. What they fear is that corporations have become so accustomed to trickle down handouts that any talk otherwise tilts business money towards conservatives.
The way to achieve this balance, as mentioned in the article, is to put pressure on the establishment and make it possible for change.
-David
The way to achieve this balance, as mentioned in the article, is to put pressure on the establishment and make it possible for change.
But the problem is, Democrats in power don't WANT it to change..
As evidence by the latest explosions of personal wealth by Democrat leaders..
When progressives run for election, sure... They give great lip service to being all about changing the status quo... But when they are finally elected, they LIKE the status quo..
Evidence?? Barack Obama.. 'nuff said..
Further evidence???
Do you know who one of the largest group of donors for Mr Progressive, Russ Feingold are??
Trial Lawyers and Law Firms..
Progressives are only progressives to get elected...
After they are elected, they become Republican Lite..
Those few (VERY few) progressives that are REALLY progressives, that STAY progressives after being elected, find that they barely get to serve one term. And that term is highly restricted and useless..
These are the facts...
Which is why I say that both Democrat and Republican politicians are assholes..
But at least Republicans (by and large) are honest about who and what they are...
Democrats (by and large) are snake oil salesman. They promise you "Hope" and "Change" to get elected and then they become the status quo politician...
Michale.....
Democrats (by and large) are snake oil salesman. They promise you "Hope" and "Change" to get elected and then they become the status quo politician...
If you are thinking I am just being very bitter because I got fooled by one of those snake oil salesmen, you would be dead on ballz accurate...
"It's an industry term."
-Marisa Tomeii, MY COUSIN VINNY
Michale.....
Democrats (by and large) are snake oil salesman. They promise you "Hope" and "Change" to get elected and then they become the status quo politician.
Really?
If you change this to politicians, I might believe you, but to just single out Democrats is to bury your head in the sand.
John Kasich ... "Jobs, jobs, jobs"
Scott Walker ... No mention of Union busting,
George W. Bush ... Where to start?
George Bush Sr. ... No new taxes
Mitt Romney ... Health care flip-flop
John McCain ... Has flipped so much you'd think he was a pancake.
In fact, the more time pols have spent in office, the more likely they'll have had to work w/ the establishment to get something done.
As for Sarah Palin ... why is she not running?
-David
John Kasich ... "Jobs, jobs, jobs"
You'll have to give me details, as I have no idea who Kasich is...
Scott Walker ... No mention of Union busting,
No, but he DID mention he was going to do a budget that was within the means of the state. If that means public sector employees have to pull their weight, so be it... They still have better pay and benefits than comparable private-sector employees. Maybe they should quit whining and do their part and just be thankful they actually have a job.. Many of their fellow Americans are not so lucky and would give their right nut to have work...
Greedy people really piss me off...
George W. Bush ... Where to start?
Indeed....
Mitt Romney ... Health care flip-flop
Has Romney been elected to anything???
John McCain ... Has flipped so much you'd think he was a pancake
Example...???
Besides, we're not talking about changing one's perspective based on changing circumstances... We're not talking a broken promise here or there..
We're talking about being elected on a specific platform with a specific agenda and then totally ignoring that platform and serving just the opposite agenda...
Do you SERIOUSLY believe that Obama is the man you voted for president??
As for Sarah Palin ... why is she not running?
Why should she?? She has the Left and the MSM wrapped around her little finger...
The longer she makes the Left hysterical the more Independents and NPAs will say, "Ya know, if Palin makes the Left THAT crazy, maybe there is something to her..."
If the Left could ignore Palin, she would likely just fade away...
But the Left has as much chance of ignoring Palin as Matt has of actually entertaining opposing opinions... :D
Michale.....
regulations are stifling job growth. It's time government got out of the way.
-Bill Clinton, TIMES Jun 2011
I'm just sayin'.... :D
Michale.....
"Deficits don't matter" - Dick Cheney
Remember when Cheney and Reagan before him and every other conservative on the planet made America eat that plate of shit.
Now the entire party has done an entire 180 degrees and served up the opposite plate. I'm surprised their heads haven't snapped off from the flip-floppin'.
Greedy people really piss me off.
Really? Me too.
Remember when teachers and public employees crashed the stock market, wiped out our 401ks, took hundreds of billions in bailouts, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?
Me neither.
-David
"Deficits don't matter" - Dick Cheney
Remember when Cheney and Reagan before him and every other conservative on the planet made America eat that plate of shit.
Com'on, that was a decade ago for Cheney and even longer for Reagan...
At the time, circumstances made that an accurate statement.
That was then, this is now..
Now the entire party has done an entire 180 degrees and served up the opposite plate. I'm surprised their heads haven't snapped off from the flip-floppin'.
Sheeet, the GOP had a decade to perform their 180..
Democrats do a 180 over a period of a month or even less in most issues...
Which goes back to my previous point about how it's the Democratic Party that is more famous for talking out both sides of their ass..
Remember when teachers and public employees crashed the stock market, wiped out our 401ks, took hundreds of billions in bailouts, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?
So, what you are saying is that it's OK for teachers and public employees to be greedy and drive a state to bankruptcy because they were NOT responsible for the Wall Street crash???
We agree that greed is bad and it harms the country as a whole.
So, why is it bad for Wall Street scum to be greedy but it's OK for Unions to be greedy??
Especially when BOTH have the same effect on the country...
Unions and this sense of entitlement from workers is as big a problem as corporate greed...
"Do you know how much it costs to insure a Ferrari, motherf***er!!??"
-Malcolm Lamont, THE REPLACEMENTS
That's the feel I get from public employees who are fighting for 6 figure salaries and Cadillac benefits package when they should just be damn grateful that they have work..
We're not talking about work conditions or meager pay.. We're talking about salaries and bennys that are the envy of every private sector worker in the country..
THAT is greed..
Michale.....
THAT is greed.
Really? One wrecked our country, received $800 BILLION in bailout money, and walked away scot free. The other teach our kids and make $40k a year.
Earth to Michale ... are you losing air out there? We're worried about 'ya :)
-David
The other teach our kids...
How much teaching did the teachers do when they faked doctor notes to get out of work so they could go fight for the exorbitant benefits package??
Further, WHAT were the teachers teaching their kids?? That's it's OK to lie and cheat if you feel you are being screwed over??
Because THAT is the lesson the schoolchildren of Wisconsin were taught...
...and make $40k a year.
Teacher salaries for Fiscal Yr '11 is 56,600 per year. That's more than DOUBLE the per capita salaries of the entire state. That's also about $12K more than the median family income of Wisconsin..
When one adds in the benefits package, the teacher package is over $100K per year... And that is for BEGINNING Teachers!!!
All the state had asked was that the teachers contribute a little more than nothing to their benefits package..
Given the current state of the economy, is that really too much to ask??
Let's face it. The whole Wisconsin issue on the side of the teachers comes down to one thing and one thing only..
Union Power.. They Unions are desperately trying to hold on to power and they are willing to sacrifice the education of the Wisconsin school children to do it..
Michale.....
Public Employee Union Leaders in Wisconsin ALL make 6 figures JUST in salaries.. That is ALSO in addition to their regular teacher salary..
Why don't THEY take a cut in pay so that the teachers won't have to contribute so much to their own benefits package??
Better yet, why don't they donate ALL of their Union Leader pay to the teachers??
Michale.....
Rant on ... Brutha Michale ... rant on!
:D Always...
But you have to admit. I am right..
By cheating and lying, the Wisconsin teachers weren't very good role models for their students.
Or, are you of the opinion that the ends justifies the means? :D
Michale.....
I am of the opinion that the conservative targeting of teachers, police, fireman, and others is both payback for perceived Democratic support and a giant distraction.
As such, I have no interest in talking about it.
If you want to talk about anything that really caused our economic situation, lemme know :)
-David
I am of the opinion that the conservative targeting of teachers, police, fireman, and others is both payback for perceived Democratic support and a giant distraction.
You claim that the wrong actions of the teachers are only being condemned because said teachers support the Democratic Party.
Aren't you guilty of the same, but in reverse??
You WON'T condemn the very wrong actions of the teachers BECAUSE of the support for the Democratic Party..
Put another way... What would you say to the actions of a teacher who forged a doctors note for a wild sex getaway in Vegas??
You would condemn those actions in the strongest possible terms, as would any rational and civilized person.
But, if you have a teacher who forged a doctors note to help out the Democratic Party agenda, well... That's a whole different kettle o' fish, eh? :D
Actions such as that are wrong... Regardless of which Political Party agenda is being served...
Michale.....