Guest Column: Occupy Wall Street is Not the Tea Party of the Left
Every so often, I am so impressed by a comment to one of my columns that I offer to just turn my column over to the author, and let them have my soapbox. This doesn't happen often, usually around once per year.
I've written a few columns so far about the Occupy Wall Street protest, and what I like to call the 99 Percenter movement. But when I threw the subject open to my own blog's commenters as to what the next phase of the movement will (or should) be, I got one very interesting comment in response. So I asked the author to expand her comment slightly, and rewrite it as a column.
The author, when contacted, described herself thusly: "I am a longtime Netroots political junkie, avid reader of multiple 'left wing' or 'progressive' blogs and information sites, and I am following the OWS movement with great interest and deep satisfaction. Like many OWS sympathizers, my day job consumes my primary energy, but I am with the protesters in spirit. I've visited Occupy DC in McPherson Square where I've donated supplies, and I will continue to donate to the movement. I will participate in OWS when I can in actions nearer to home."
She has chosen to identify herself by her screen name "Paula." In the communitarian spirit of letting everyone have their say, I'm turning today's column over to her.
-- Chris Weigant
Occupy Wall Street is Not the Tea Party of the Left
I've read literally hundreds of articles and posts about Occupy Wall Street, and one recurrent idea is that OWS is or should become the "Tea Party of the Left." I think that's a misreading of both the movement's origins and its evolving aspirations.
The Tea Party burst forth as an expression of right-wing grassroots anger, but Tea Partiers weren't the only Americans who were angry. Most Americans have been angry and getting angrier at the state of the nation, the economy, and the apparent inability of our leaders to respond effectively. However, while the Tea Party created opportunities for Republicans to air their perennial tax cuts and deregulation "solutions" and provided populist cover for Republican union-busting and voter-suppression efforts, the rest of us were given no alternative solutions or narratives to support. President Obama and Democratic leaders spent two years agreeing with the Republicans' framing of our economic difficulties and the traditional media duly trumpeted "the deficit" as our most pressing concern. Many knew the deficit was neither the worst nor the primary problem, but what was?
For Tea Partiers, years of income stagnation, rising education and healthcare costs, the decimation of retirement funds and 401Ks, high unemployment, etc., could all be laid at the door of Socialist-Muslim-big-government-liberal-Democrats -- and the bailouts were the final straw. What to do? Lower taxes and deregulate, and then when the economy doesn't improve, rinse and repeat.
Others saw things differently. Very gradually a consensus was building. A critical mass of the citizenry was recognizing that corporations and exceedingly wealthy individuals (the 1%) had gained indirect control of our government. Through their influence in Congress and the courts they'd engineered conditions that exponentially increased their wealth and enabled them to exploit and prey upon the rest of us. "Too big to fail" meant their gains were privatized and their losses publicized. Competition and free market principles did not apply to them; they loved monopolies and corporate welfare. Citizens -- and democracy itself -- were expendable. The 1% and those that serve them were above the law.
But what to do? Most of us are too enmeshed in the system to risk challenging it. People with jobs don't want to jeopardize their employment or health insurance (even if their employer is a 1% entity that pays them, while hurting others). The Republican machine excels at defaming people who defy the system. Whistle-blowers are punished: Bradley Manning is abused in captivity, while Dick Cheney and Condi Rice do book tours. How do you challenge a system you're trapped in, and from which you can expect little mercy?
You don't. People NOT trapped in the system do. Young people without children or jobs who have nothing but debt and unemployment to lose. Activists who've fashioned lives outside the system. Retirees with incomes.
Occupy Wall Street, meet Zuccotti Park. You may only number in the hundreds but scores more will send you food, money, blankets, and messages -- and will honk for you, hassle their representatives for you, visit you, and thank you. Millions will accept your message because they have confronted the same problems and agree with your conclusions.
The OWS movement is growing spontaneously because it is reality-based and a wide swath of Americans actively relate to its 99% premise. It is confronting systemic problems that genuinely damage people's lives as opposed to the fantasies spun by the Tea Party. Indeed, it is so reality-based that the media has been forced to notice it and various power centers have had to publicly react to it (and try to silence it). In contrast to the "respect" accorded the Tea Party, OWS has made an impact in spite of its message being unwelcome in so much of the media. No one in power wanted to legitimize the movement, but the sheer weight of its accuracy has forced people into grudging admissions. Powerful people have publicly stated that protester grievances are understandable and even, maybe, legitimate. They don't want to do anything about the grievances, but they have not been able to deny the essential validity of the 99% message. In this OWS has already prevailed. But now what?
I interpret "becoming the tea party of the left" as OWS aligning itself with the Democratic party and working to elect progressive Democrats. But from the beginning, OWS activists have resisted going down this path. They want to emphasize their representation of the 99% and don't want their efforts reduced to "Democrat versus Republican" political battles. They consider both parties to be servants of the 1% -- and thus, part of the problem. Instead, their current activities have two trajectories: (1.) to highlight existing power abusers; and (2.) to find ways to return power to the people. OWS is a work-in-progress, developing in real time.
OWS's lack of pre-packaged solutions, lists of demands, etc., indicates we're in uncharted waters -- not a comfortable place for many people. The hard slog of real problem solving isn't sexy, and doesn't easily reduce to soundbites. But that has been one of OWS's strengths. Traditional solutions have failed -- often repeatedly -- so OWS is exploring new approaches. They're invested in reaching consensus, achieved through the laborious process of people hashing things out until they find common ground. It's the polar opposite of our current winner-takes-all system. Will their methods lead to "the" solution? I have no idea.
At present I think their greatest value lies in continuing to shine light on the fact that none of our emperors are wearing clothes. Our major institutions have failed us, one by one, and citizens have ceased to matter. Through their simple presence; through their continuing inspiration of more Occupy groups (Occupy Accountability, Occupy Marines, as well as location-based Occupations, etc.), the message continues to spread and evolve. It may well be that, say, the New York group never generates any specific outcome in terms of new laws or prosecutions, but I'll bet that some offshoot groups they have inspired will.
Meanwhile, OWS has shifted the media's focus from deficits to unemployment and the extreme income disparity and concentration of wealth and power that many economists, activists and pundits have long talked about (to no avail).
Simultaneously, violent reactions by some police have also been enlightening -- they have exposed the militarization of our police forces; the criminalization of poverty in America, and the lie that is "freedom". We are free only so long as the comfortable remain comfortable. Upsetting of applecarts will be punished. Leaders deplore our exponential increases in poverty while making it ever harder for the homeless: it's against the law to sleep in public or put up a tent in a park. Who knew?
True to form, Republican reactions to OWS highlight their innate nastiness and absurdity (with Fox News reaching new heights in hysterical invective).
Democrats, meanwhile, are unsure where this movement leaves them, which may generate some badly needed soul-searching. For OWS is unflinchingly condemnatory about the party's failures. Democrats stand guilty of: serious enabling; refusing to take strong party-wide stands against Republican excesses; cooperating rather than condemning; choosing safe acts of cowardice over risky acts of courage.
For years there's been a go-nowhere argument raging on the left over what to do about the Democratic party when it fails us. The answer has always been "elect better Dems." The problem with that answer is that it stinks. It is unsatisfactory. It supports a rigged system. Candidates can say anything to get elected and then immediately renege on their promises. It isn't good enough to say "wait for 2-4-6 years" to hold them accountable. It isn't good enough to have to wait for the future while they do damage now. We shouldn't have to fight our way through right-wing disinformation while a corporate media aids liars in their lies, and our representatives know we're being lied to but do nothing.
OWS is saying: No More. Not gonna keep playing a rigged game. Don't feel like going around in circles anymore. There has to be a better way. Must we settle for this travesty of a democracy?
Prior to OWS, I was mired in a tired kind of despair. Congress is a nasty joke. The president has not been the change we need. His genuine sense of responsibility makes him better than any Republican adversary, but he is so enmeshed in the 1% world that I don't believe he really grasps how our country has degenerated, or why (ditto for the rest of the inside-the-Beltway crowd). Obama is "better than the alternative", but that certainly isn't going to be an exhilarating message for the campaign season.
Now, partly (if not wholly) due to OWS, Obama is showing some fight -- but whether he fights one minute beyond his second inauguration remains to be seen. In any event, since it's both unfair and unrealistic to expect one man to engineer the level of change we need, and since Congress has proven such a weak reed, OWS offers a third avenue of change.
So, if the OWS goal isn't to become "the tea party of the left," what should it be? Well, I think they've done a hell of a lot so far simply by following their noses -- doing whatever came next. Doing what they feel is right. Doing what they agree together to do. So maybe the question shouldn't be: "what should they do next?" Maybe the question should be: "What should I... you... we do next?"
Cross-posted at The Huffington Post
Follow Chris on Twitter: @ChrisWeigant
Well said, Paula. I am speechless with admiration!
My situation and answer is very similar to yours, I contribute where I can, attend where I can, and share as much as I can.
-David
p.s. To your point about this being much bigger than Zucotti Park. DailyKos traffic has apparently gone through the roof since the OWS movement with their biggest single post ever which had more than 700,000 shares and hits in the millions.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/12/1025555/-Open-Letter-to-that-53-Guy?via=hotlist
Excellent post. OWS is a rational response to a failing system.
No, Osbourne. OWS is not a rational response. OWS is a leap into the unknown.
hebrews 11:1
http://www.godvine.com/bible/Hebrews/11-1
paula has declaimed the new Reformation.
Matt,
Excellent post. OWS is a rational response to a failing system.
SERIOUSLY!!?????
Of all the total BS comments I have read in the past 5 years on CW.COM, this one has the mostest smell of any comment I have ever read...
"Rational"??? Did you seriously just say "rational"??
Let's see what "rational" looks like:
Occupy Oakland votes to open Wells Fargo account
charlotteobserver.com/2011/11/10/2761772/occupy-oakland-votes-to-open-wells.html
Occupy Oakland Puts Donated Money Into Big Bank
fox40.com/news/headlines/ktxl-occupy-oakland-puts-donated-money-into-big-bank-20111109,0,7211995.story
Homeless Fed Up With 'Occupy' Sacramento: 'I Just Wish They'd Give Us Our Park Back'
sacramento.cbslocal.com/2011/11/07/homeless-clash-with-occupy-sacramento-protesters-at-park/
'Occupy' Protesters Splatter Blood, Urine On Food Carts After Vendors Stop Free Service
losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/11/07/socal-street-cart-vendors-hurting-after-occupy-group-splatters-blood-urine/
'Occupy DC' protesters push elderly lady down steps
nation.foxnews.com/occupy-wall-street/2011/11/07/occupy-dc-goons-push-elderly-woman-down-stairs
3 Arrested For Dealing Crack At 'Occupy' Boston; Alcohol, Fights Causing Group To 'Deteriorate'
boston.cbslocal.com/2011/11/04/3-charged-with-dealing-crack-occupy-boston-deteriorating/
Child services seizes baby at 'Occupy Dallas'
dfw.cbslocal.com/2011/11/04/cps-seizes-baby-from-occupy-dallas-site/
Union Chief: 'We Need More Militancy' to Occupy Protests
nation.foxnews.com/occupy-wall-street/2011/11/03/union-chief-we-need-more-militancy-blocking-bridges-occupying-banks
'Occupy' Rallies Turn Violent
latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/11/occupy-oakland-tear-gas-arrests.html
Occupy protests degenerate into chaos
nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Occupy-Oakland-Hosts-General-Strike-133081358.html
Man arrested for sexual assault of 14-year old at 'Occupy Dallas' camp
wfaa.com/news/Occupy-Dallas-man-arrested-for-sexual-assault-133033828.html
'Occupy Wall Street' causes 21 workers to lose jobs
newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/11/01/milk-street-cafe-owner-sacks-21-employees-as-consequence-of-occupy-wall-street-demonstration/
'Occupy Madison' loses permit due to public masturbation
madison.com/daily-cardinal/
Woman charged with pimping teen recruited at 'Occupy New Hampshire'
unionleader.com/article/20111028/NEWS03/710289961
Fights erupt between Occupy protesters
content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/10/report-fights-erupt-between-occupy-wall-street-protesters/1
REPORT: ACORN behind 'Occupy'
foxnews.com/us/2011/10/26/exclusive-acorn-playing-behind-scenes-role-in-occupy-movement/
'OCCUPY' TO STORM GODFATHER'S OFFICE
nbcchicago.com/blogs/ward-room/Occupy-Chicago-Takes-on-City-Hall-132605808.html?dr
Occupy Rules: Use Only 'Gender-Neutral Pronouns'
campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/dc-occupiers-convene-plot-stay-winter
OFFICIALS: 'Occupy Boston' poses health risk
bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1376084
'Occupy Boston' Couple Busted Peddling Heroin
boston.cbslocal.com/2011/10/24/pair-living-with-occupy-boston-protesters-arrested-for-selling-heroin/
'Occupy Wall St.' becoming 'firetrap'
newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/10/24/sources-fdny-concerned-zuccotti-park-turning-into-firetrap/
REPORT: 14-year-old girl sexually assaulted at 'Occupy Dallas'
dfw.cbslocal.com/2011/10/24/accusations-of-teen-runaway-sexual-activity-at-occupy-dallas/
Shootings up 154% in NYC during 'Occupy'
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/shootings_way_up_in_two_weeks_rajGrOA0bMpTBslidEUgOI
SHOCK VIDEO: Occupy Toronto: 'This Man Was in my Tent Sniffing my Girlfriend's Feet'
mrctv.org/videos/occupy-toronto-man-was-my-tent-sniffing-my-girlfriend%E2%80%99s-feet%E2%80%9D
Occupy Atlanta protesters storm hospital
emorywheel.com/detail.php?n=30249
CHINA THROWS SUPPORT BEHIND 'OCCUPY'
hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_CHINA_WALL_STREET_PROTESTS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-10-17-07-40-45
Occupy Portland Protesters Sing 'F*** the USA'
youtube.com/watch?v=OeuGx8PplAo
Nazi, Communist Parties Throw Their Support Behind Occupy Wall Street
thegatewaypundit.com/2011/10/figures-nazi-party-throws-support-behind-occupy-wall-street-movement/
Occupy L.A. Speaker: Violence will be Necessary to Achieve Goals
pjmedia.com/tatler/2011/10/11/occupy-l-a-speaker-violence-will-be-necessary-to-achieve-our-goals/
Now, that's just from Mid October to now..
THAT is your idea of "rational"???
Seriously!!????
Rapes, Assaults, Pimping, Drug Dealing, Sexual Assaults, FUCK THE USA, Violence, Nazis and Communists, More Assaults....
THAT is "rational" to you???
Again.... SERIOUSLY???
I'm partially with DF on this one... This is NOT 'rational'... But it's far from unknown..
This type of immature, selfish, egotistical, destructive and wholly un-American activity is far from unknown..
It's activities that have been seen before, when the lazy and the spoiled feel that the country owes them a living. It's an immature response of entitlement for wealth un-earned. It's a thirst for power without wisdom for the sake of power itself.
Oh yes, we have seen this kind of thing before.
These aren't the 99%.. These malcontent spoiled little brats are, at BEST, the 9%...
Michale......
In anticipation of expected same ol same ol arguments, let me save ya'all the trouble..
"But... But... Those are just isolated incidents"
I posted headlines just from the last 3 weeks... That's about a third of what's available. Far from isolated by ANY stretch of the definition..
"But.. But... Those are just isolated areas.."
Sorry, this too is wrong. This small example of articles come from LA, Dallas, Houston, Boston, New York, New Hampshire, DC, Chicago, Bay Area..
In short, this is what is happening all over the country...
"Oh, it's just FoxNews drivel..."
Sorry, wrong again...
Ignoring for the moment, that THAT is NOT a challenge of accuracy, but rather simply a case of political bigotry.....
Of the 30 or so articles posted, only 3 came from FoxNews sources.
Like it or not, people..
THIS is your Oowzers....
This is who they are...
THIS is what they do...
Deny reality all you want... It won't change the facts..
This is your Oowzers...
Michale.....
CW,
In the communitarian spirit of letting everyone have their say,
"Communitarian"??? Is that even a word?? :D
Whether it is or not, you definitely have that.. In spades.. :D
Michale....
Paula, meet Michale.
He really is a good guy despite what can seem like long raging rants.
:)
-David
He really is a good guy despite what can seem like long raging rants.
Awwww, yer just saying that... :D
Actually, Paula and I have met...
Remember?? She was the one that accused me of being a paid shill...
Little did she know that I am NOT a paid shill...
Just an arrogant prick.. :D
Michale.....
I really have to wonder what ya'all would be saying if the Tea Party had generated even a TENTH of the above kinds of headlines..
:D
"No, not really. I can't back that up."
-Dr Evil, AUSTIN POWERS, The Spy Who Shagged Me
:D
Michale.....
This article cogently expresses the hopes of progressives everywhere. I have found its like only in the writings of the turn of the century Wobs.
An injury to one is an injury to all!!
1: Understand that "... corporations and exceedingly wealthy individuals (the 1%) had gained indirect control of our government..."
2: Realize that "...Citizens -- and democracy itself -- were expendable. The 1% and those that serve them were above the law"
3: Trust "Young people ... Activists ... Retirees" to be the spear point.
4: Active Support: "scores more will send you..."
5: Passive Support: "Millions will accept your message because they have confronted the same problems ..."
Michale and his ilk are terrified of this movement as it hits at the absolute heart of their attempted dominance: ignore the man behind the machine.
DF,
Your entire premise is based on one VERY faulty conclusion.
That the forces of the Left are somehow better than the forces you rail against...
You say "Corporations" and point out Unions. You say "exceedingly wealthy individuals" and I point to Democrats...
There really isn't any difference between the Left and the Oowzers... Oh sure.. The Oowzers and people like Paula and people here et al give lip service to how disappointed they are in Obama and Democratic Leaders. But yet they still support them with money and time and effort... And anyone who dares say, "Ya know, I think the emperor is buck assed nekkid" is treated like... Well, treated like I am around here..
Ya'all align yourselves with the purveyors of the Status Quo yet are gabberflasted that nothing ever changes...
People like that are NEVER part of the solution.
People like that are ALWAYS part of the problem...
Michale and his ilk are terrified of this movement
Well, I can't speak for the ilk because I, unlike ya'all, are not enslaved by political dogma and bigotry... In other words, I have no "ilk"... :D
Speaking only for myself, I am far from "terrified"... Unlike the store owners and vendors that are terrorized by the Oowzers... (Iddn't it funny that NO ONE here wants to address that??)
No, I am mostly saddened by the actions of these fellow Americans... I am even more saddened by the apparent approval of such actions by those around these here parts..
People like Osborne I can see supporting pimps and heroin dealers and assaults and disgusting attacks with bodily fluids... After all, that's the Hysterical Left's bread and butter. They LIVE for stuff like that..
But the rank and file around here not condemning actions like that??? The people who are more concerned about Party loyalty than doing right as human beings???
Terrified??? Hardly....
Saddened??? Definitely...
Michale....
Rather than read thru the tangled self-serving logic expressed in [11], try this:
http://southernfood.about.com/od/lambrecipes/r/r71221i.htm
It will take as long, but you'll actuall have something at the end of the time.
Rather than read thru the tangled self-serving logic expressed in [11], try this:
Translation:
with finger in ears I'm not listening to you.. lalalalalalalalalalalalalalala I'm not listenting to you lalalalalalalalalalala
Real mature there, DF.. :D
If ya can't stand the heat, yer in the wrong place.. :D
Michale.....
Michale, You did such a thorough job you left little for me lol,
I will say this. The authors point seems to be that the difference between the Tea party and owsers is that the Tea party had a fairly unified message and a plan that involved pushing for electoral changes and candidates that backed that message.
And you say the Ows have a message but no solutions and are not wanting to get behind political action to fix the problem.
You then point out the Obvious fact that most OWS are unemployed.
So of Course Ann Coulter said the difference was the TP had Jobs, a Point, and Baths and you seem to agree with her.
Both sides rail against some similar components.
Tea party did not Like TARP bailouts or specifically the way they were handled. OWS would seem to agree.
Tea Party does not like Corporate bailouts with Tax Dollars and OWS seem to agree.
But then the divide comes when the Tea party says we dont want INDIVIDUAL bailouts/handouts either and the OWS do not seem to agree.
The tea party wants to change through the electoral process and the OWS dont seem to be agitating for that.
They are not protesting at Congressional offices and camping out in front of them. They did not set up their Obamaville encampments near their Congressional Representatives homes or offices.
It seems to me they are simply trying to point out that the Super Wealthy are very wealthy?
Thanks for the "Blinding Flash of the Obvious" Ows, now go get a job like the author of the article did, start at the bottom and work your way up!
Michale, You did such a thorough job you left little for me lol,
Yea, sorry about that... :D It just seems so self evident to me...
It was crystallized for me when I read an article about an Oowzer who was committing assaults and vandalism and was asked by a reporter why he is doing it..
His response was, "I work 20 hours a week and I can't get ahead!!!"
What The Fuck!!????
20 Hours a week!!!!
I worked more hours when I was in ICU after a burst appendix!!!!
TWENTY HOURS A WEEK!!!????
Shit, I work that practically in a day!!!
That's the problem with the Oowzers... They think that the country owes them a living.
What's one of their demands???
A Government guaranteed income of $50K a year, even if they don't work!!???
Jeeezus H Frakin' Christ!!!
And these people are the saviors of the Left and the U.S. of A.???
Gods help us all.....
So of Course Ann Coulter said the difference was the TP had Jobs, a Point, and Baths and you seem to agree with her.
Plus the fact that she is really hot (OK OK kinda hot... I'm like Al Bundy.. I like Bigguns... :D), yea... I would agree.. The biggest complaint against the Oowzers is their hygiene...Or lack thereof..
And people like Paula and Osborne call them "rational"....
I say again... Gods help us all....
Michale.....
They are not protesting at Congressional offices and camping out in front of them. They did not set up their Obamaville encampments near their Congressional Representatives homes or offices.
Ding, Ding, Ding!!!!
We have a winner...
If the Oowzers are everything they claim they are, why aren't they protesting in front of the White House where all the policies they are railing against originated???
Answer: Because they don't really care about all that...
They are just tired of being the HAVE NOTs and they just want everything the HAVEs have, but they don't want to have to work for it, to earn it....
That pretty much sums things up...
Michale....
David, Osborne Ink and DerFarm: Thanks!
Excellent essay, Paula! Do you have a blog or someplace where you post regularly? I'd like to read more of your work.
i disagree with the premise of this article. the more both sides deny being similar, the more the similarities show. yes, the 99 percenters are younger and thus have all of youth's benefits and faults. they also are out there every day, which is bound to result in more complex issues than a group that only assembles in public a few days a year. they don't have jobs because the sorts of companies they trained for aren't hiring. the TP's want to change government from the inside and the 99 percenters want to change the society because they believe the current government is beyond redemption, but as tinsldr2 points out, many of the problems the two groups want to change are actually the very same ones.
and by the way, ann coulter is michael moore with a bleach job and liposuction. put that in your pipe and smoke it.
They are just tired of being the HAVE NOTs and they just want everything the HAVEs have, but they don't want to have to work for it, to earn it....
that's just mythology.
there are certainly some individuals who fit what you're saying to a tee. however, a large subset of the "haves" don't have to work for or earn what they have, and a large subset of the "have nots" work as hard as anybody. it's improper to assume that wealth is gained by merit or that merit yields wealth, because right now the correlation between the two is as weak as it's ever been.
"Deserve's got nothin' to do with it"
~William Munny (Clint Eastwood) - Unforgiven
shevek57,
does your username have any relation to the protagonist in ursula leguin's novel, "the dispossessed?"
nypoet22:
"many of the problems the two groups want to change are actually the very same ones"
Could you elaborate on that? My first instinct is to disagree with that statement so I'd like to know what you are referencing specifically.
Thanks, Paula
paula,
i was referring to both groups' opposition to TARP/corporate bailouts with tax dollars, corporate personhood, lobbying and political media. both groups have realized the essential paradigm shift elucidated by barry ritholtz: "It's You vs. Corporations"
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2010/09/you-vs-corporations/
David, Osborne Ink and DerFarm: Thanks!
Hay DerFarm.... Remember you mentioned how it's conservatives who have the "echo chamber" and I told you that the Left is the same way...
Here's a perfect example of it...
Don't want to listen to ANY dissenting opinion that might upset their world view...
Like I always say... There really isn't any different between the Right and the Left..
Paula epitomizes this to a tee...
Joshua,
and by the way, ann coulter is michael moore with a bleach job and liposuction.
Oh gods, thanx a frak'in lot!!!! :D
Michale.....
there are certainly some individuals who fit what you're saying to a tee. however, a large subset of the "haves" don't have to work for or earn what they have, and a large subset of the "have nots" work as hard as anybody. it's improper to assume that wealth is gained by merit or that merit yields wealth, because right now the correlation between the two is as weak as it's ever been.
While what you say makes sense, it seems to me that if the "have nots" have the time and the energy to go out and destroy public and private property, crap on public buildings and harass innocent people, they they SHOULD have the time and energy to actually WORK for a living..
Seems like the Oowzers epitomize the people that I describe more so than the people that you describe....
Like I said, the Tea Party seems to be a LOT more representative of John Q Public than the Oowzers are...
Would you agree with that??
Michale.....
shevek57: I don't blog elsewhere but thanks for asking!
nypoet22: While the TARP bailouts were opposed by both groups, the rest of your list I would disagree with. I don't think OWS folks had any problem with the GM bailout, for example, which pretty directly saved a lot of American jobs. I don't know where the Tea Party stands on Oil subsidies but I think OWS is against those.
The Tea Party seemed to believe that our healthcare system should firmly remain in the hands of corporations and that the "free market" would somehow solve the problem of healthcare costs and lack of availability. They supported Healthcare/Insurance industry/FOX/Koch spin every step of the way and screamed about socialized medicine, even while screaming louder that their Medicare/Medicaid should remain untouched. They seemed perfectly happy with the idea that people in this country should die if they can't get insurance through the existing system.
I've never heard that the Tea Party had any philosophical objection to Corporate Personhood although perhaps thats something they've come to recognize as a problem.
In terms of the "political media" the Tea Party has been both fans of and tools of FOX, a media outlet characterized by dishonesty from top to bottom. Re: the rest of the media, the Tea Party vehemently bought into the "liberal media" canard, which is completely different from the concept of a "corporate media". OWS sees FOX as an agent of the 1% against the 99%. The Tea Party thinks FOX is the only credible media outlet in existence.
Tea Party protests were against "the government" and against all the various "not-thems" they hate. They were certainly not proclaiming any kind of "we're all in this together" message. They've supported all kinds of nonsensical nastiness against immigrants. They buy every Islamophobic principle; they want to shove their brand of Christianity down our throats at the point of a gun if necessary; they love guns in general and enjoy waving them around at their protests.
The Tea Party and OWS are alike only in the sense that all protests have some similarity, but after that they completely diverge.
While OWS has extended their hands to the Tea Party, I don't think Tea Partiers can cross over without experiencing a paradigm shift. And some will do so. But once they cross over, they won't be able to go back -- they won't be Tea Partiers any more.
It's amazing...
It's as if the Oowzers never have committed ANY acts of violence..
It's as if no one has ever died or been arrested at an Oowzer protest..
It's as if there have NEVER been any rapes or sexual assaults or drug deals or kids being taken away at Oowzer events...
http://sjfm.us/temp/ostrich.jpg
How long can pro-Oowzers deny reality???
THAT is the question.....
Note to those people...
This is a REALITY based area....
Get with the program... :D
Michale.....
What I find so amazing is that CW himself has, on several occasions, implored the Oowzers to step up and condemn the violent acts committed by Oowzers..
And yet, no one... Not even ANYONE here has stepped up and done so...
Bitch at me all you want, but it seems that me and CW are of the same mind and on the same page on this issue.
These disgusting and perverse acts MUST be condemned by ALL decent Americans..
But what hope is there for the general public when the readers of CW.COM won't even step up and be counted as against the violence???
You see why I say that all this violence is actually representative of the Oowzer group???
No one condemns it.... Ergo... Silence gives assent...
Jeeezus, people.. Do ya'all need a ton of bricks to fall on you to do what's right???
Awww right.... I'm done for the night... It's special time with my lovely wife tonight... :D
See ya'all in the AM....
Michale.....
Michale/Paula,
I think you're both falling into the same trap - thinking that the incredibly small percentage of wackjobs who get media attention are representative of the group overall. conflict sells, so that's what every media outlet puts on, regardless of their ideological bent. by and large, the people who get out to protest (either 99 percenters OR tea partiers) are much more reasonable than their group is portrayed.
nypoet22: I notice you didn't actually address the points I made.
Nypoet22: Nah, you got it wrong. This is more than a style issue. It is form follows function.
Michale uses this forum to insult people, question their honesty, sanity and history. He pays no attention to what was the reasoning behind the argument. He cares nothing for the substance of the argument and has no good will to interpret something charitably. He knows the price of everything, the cost of nothing.
Paula has shown herself to be reasoned and willing to listen to arguments that don't correspond to hers. She has attempted to understand the actual meaning of arguments, rather than the slash and dash of the kill.
Paula is a lady. Michale is not a gentleman.
Paula: Sorry to learn you're not blogging anywhere. I do enjoy your comments here.
nypoet22: Yes, the handle is courtesy of Ms. Le Guin.
DerFarm: You've nailed it!
DerFarm: awwww.
Thanks!
Shevek57: Thanks too!
Shevek57 -
That's actually a very appropriate book to bring into this conversation. The OWS folks seem to be reaching for an organization which would fit right in on Annares.
The quote that's always stuck with me (this could be from the short story "The Day Before The Revolution" though, not sure) was:
"Of course the students are anarchists! When you're on the bottom, you organize from the bottom up."
:-)
Michale -
You might never have read this book, but you might also recognize the word "ansible" for a faster-than-light communications device, which Ursula LeGuin used in many of her books.
-CW
To everyone -
Not sure why Huffington Post hasn't put this article up yet. They seemed to be having some technical problems earlier today, but your guess is as good as mine. Just wanted to say that, and thank Paula again for writing.
-CW
Joshua,
thinking that the incredibly small percentage of wackjobs who get media attention are representative of the group overall.
While you may be right, two things support the notion that the Oowzers as a group are violent.
1> The violence is ongoing, widespread and growing.
2> The Oowzer's, as a group, refuse to intervene and/or condemn the violence..
Again, please note that I am not saying anything that CW himself hasn't said. At least with regards to #2.
There is sufficient evidence for a totally objective person to conclude that the Oowers, as a group, are violent, either by commission or by omission.
Hell, I can't even get anyone in here, sans CW to ACKNOWLEDGE that there is, in fact, violence...
Paula,
nypoet22: I notice you didn't actually address the points I made.
Speaking just for myself, I would guess it's because your points weren't worthy of being addressed.. They were nothing but a partisan diatribe based on absolutely ZERO facts driven by nothing more than political bigotry.
Again, that's just MY opinion as to why your points went un-addressed...
Joshua's mileage may vary.. :D
DF,
Michale uses this forum to insult people, question their honesty, sanity and history.
What a load of crap.. I treat people how they treat me. If you call me names (as Paula has done) and ridicule me (as you have done) then you get the same back. If you want to be treated with the respect due a decent human being, then all you have to do is reciprocate..
The only thing I question are people's facts. Of which Paula has absolutely zero in her commentary and you have zero in your comments.
Paula has shown herself to be reasoned and willing to listen to arguments that don't correspond to hers.
And your evidence to support this conclusion is................??????????????
Look how snooty she was with NYpoet when he didn't address her "points"... You call that "reasoned" and "willing to listen"???
Or is it that you simply agree with her so she is as pure as the driven snow and anyone that disagrees with her is to be insulted and ridiculed.
Employing Occam's Razor, it's clear that the latter argument is the correct one..
Enjoy your echo chamber.. You've earned it. :D
Michale.....
CW,
You might never have read this book, but you might also recognize the word "ansible" for a faster-than-light communications device, which Ursula LeGuin used in many of her books.
I have to admit, I am not familar with that author. I am assuming because of all the new words, that she was a Fantasy author? Growing up, my tastes were more conventional. At least conventional for a SciFi geek. Del Rey, Heinlein, Trek Novels, Danny Dunn, things like that...
These days, I really never have time to read NEW books. :( I used to be a voracious reader.. I still am, but everything now is news, Net, tablets, Net, laptops, Net, and, oh yes, the Net... :D
Michale....
At present I think their greatest value lies in continuing to shine light on the fact that none of our emperors are wearing clothes.
Ya'all want soooo bad that the Oowzers be the saviors of the Left that you are blinded to their faults. The violence is never discussed, never condemned, never even ACKNOWLEDGED...
THAT is the true "nekkid emperor" around here...
Michale.....
Joshua,
I think you're both falling into the same trap - thinking that the incredibly small percentage of wackjobs who get media attention are representative of the group overall. conflict sells, so that's what every media outlet puts on, regardless of their ideological bent. by and large, the people who get out to protest (either 99 percenters OR tea partiers) are much more reasonable than their group is portrayed.
Another point that needs to be made is the reports of violence and arrests generated by the respective groups..
Yes, you are right. It's not fair to paint an entire group based on a few nutballs..
But, with the Tea Party, it truly was "just a few nutballs".. The vast majority of "reports" were simply fabrications from the Hysterical Left. Hell, BIG money was offered for ANY documented proof of racism on behalf of the Tea Party. That money went unclaimed. As we learned, there is more racism coming out of the NAACP than came out of the Tea Party...
Contrast that with the reporting of the Oowzers. Look at the list above.. A wide range of reporting agencies from ALL over the country. Conservative, Liberal, Independent. All reporting on the same kinds of actions. And that just outlines what has been going on the last few weeks. The Oowzers have been at it for over two months. If I were to catalog and post every reported act of violence or arrest that took place, the listing would be well into the hundreds..
There are more documented factual acts of violence and arrests from the Oowzers in ONE WEEK than there are about the Tea Party SINCE IT'S INCEPTION..
That alone should tell you something...
Again, I'll ask this and I ask that you seriously consider it (as I know you will :D).
What would be the reaction from this group here, if the Tea Party had generated even a quarter of the reports above??
Would ANYONE here simply write those reports off as nothing but the media glorifying of a few nutjobs??
NO ONE, up to and including myself, would do that. Absolutely NO ONE..
EVERYONE HERE, again up to and including myself, would label the Tea Party as a violent group...
This begs the question.. If you have the exact same actions, why would the Tea Party be labeled a violent group but the Oowzers are not??
As an aside, apologies for addressing a comment above that was directed to you. It just rubbed me the wrong way.. I apologize for my presumption...
Michale.....
As to the claim that the mainstream never supports a violent movement:
John Brown's body lies a-mouldering in the grave,
but his truth is marching on.
dsws,
As to the claim that the mainstream never supports a violent movement:
Not sure if this is directed at me or not.. But I don't think I have ever indicated that the mainstream would never support a violent movement..
This country was born from the mainstream support of a "violent movement"..
Violence is simply a tool. How it's wielded determines whether or not it's good or evil..
The "violence" of World War II was definitely for the good.
As is the "violence" of LEOs in response to the violence of the Oowzers.. The former good, the latter evil...
Of course, your point also would be determined on how one defines "mainstream"...
If your comment wasn't directed at me, then..... Never mind... :D
Michale.....
Paula,,
While the TARP bailouts were opposed by both groups, the rest of your list I would disagree with. I don't think OWS folks had any problem with the GM bailout, for example, which pretty directly saved a lot of American jobs. I don't know where the Tea Party stands on Oil subsidies but I think OWS is against those."
Tea party folks like OWS have a variety of views and degrees of support for the root issues/Principles.
In general Tea Party groups are against ALL Corporate Subsidies and Bailouts. That would include OIL subsidies, Farm Subsidies etc.
As to you nonsense "They've supported all kinds of nonsensical nastiness against immigrants. They buy every Islamophobic principle; they want to shove their brand of Christianity down our throats at the point of a gun if necessary; they love guns in general and enjoy waving them around at their protests."
It shows a complete lack of understanding and information about the Tea party.
THe Tea party protests and organizations are not concerned about things like Islamaphobia, Christianity, and gun rights.
Individual members might have those positions, but that is like saying that OWS are Anti-Semite because some people at the OWS protests are anti-Semite and carry antisemitic signs.
But it just further shows that Paula wrote a column but knows little about the subject, IMO.
As to you nonsense "They've supported all kinds of nonsensical nastiness against immigrants. They buy every Islamophobic principle; they want to shove their brand of Christianity down our throats at the point of a gun if necessary; they love guns in general and enjoy waving them around at their protests."
Ironic...
I wonder what the Left's reaction to Muslim celebratory weapons fire would be.
No doubt the Left would defend that "freedom of religion" ferociously...
But let Americans observe and enjoy their Constitutional-given rights and they are demonized....
Liberal logic..... :D
Michale....
Michale
The one rifle I saw a picture of at a Tea Party event was being carried by a Minority that Paula probably thinks the Tea party hates. I am sure their are other photos of Tea partiers with guns but that is the only one of which I know.
But of course Gun ownership is a protected right. So I have no problem with law abiding citizens having guns.
But convicted Cop Killer Mumia Abu-Jamal is a supporter of the OWS and many of the OWS groups support him.
The one rifle I saw a picture of at a Tea Party event was being carried by a Minority that Paula probably thinks the Tea party hates. I am sure their are other photos of Tea partiers with guns but that is the only one of which I know.
Yea, it's like Janine Gerafalo saying that conservatives are against Obama because they are racist and the are for Cain because they are racist..
Like I said.. Liberal logic... :D
But convicted Cop Killer Mumia Abu-Jamal is a supporter of the OWS and many of the OWS groups support him.
I have always said, you can tell a lot about a group (or person) by who their supporters are..
The Oowzers are supported by Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez, Achmedjihadist, China, American Communist Party and American Nazi Party... America Haters one and all...
Now, if *I* had a supporter list like that, I would really have to re-think my positions on things...
Michale.....
The one rifle I saw a picture of at a Tea Party event was being carried by a Minority that Paula probably thinks the Tea party hates. I am sure their are other photos of Tea partiers with guns but that is the only one of which I know.
Really?
It shows a complete lack of understanding and information about the Tea party.
THe Tea party protests and organizations are not concerned about things like Islamaphobia, Christianity, and gun rights.
A quality you evidently share...
It is interesting that you and Michale are doing exactly as you accuse the left of doing, just reversing the groups.
As far as Michale's list, so every 99%er pooped on a cop car or public space? No? Was it half? Quarter? Tenth? 1%? Fraction of a percent? How true is that for most of your list? And what does that say about the list it's self?
The Oowzers are supported by Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez, Achmedjihadist, China, American Communist Party and American Nazi Party... America Haters one and all...
Hmm...I seem to smell a bit of red scare in the air...
Personally, I think this is not a case of condemn or not to condemn but an understanding that this is how these things go. Some are messy, especially when the participants tend toward the young. Do you really think that at the first infraction committed and any group should just automatically pack it in and call it's self failed?
I think the real message of the 99%ers that gets to political leaders is:
Saying no to everything and doing nothing has it's own intrinsic costs that might be higher than doing something.
Bashi,
Really?
Did you even LOOK at that link??
Very few of them were pictures of guns at Tea Party events.. :D
As far as Michale's list, so every 99%er pooped on a cop car or public space? No? Was it half? Quarter? Tenth? 1%? Fraction of a percent? How true is that for most of your list? And what does that say about the list it's self?
Can you provide a comparable list of links from Tea Party events??
No, you can't...
There are more documented cases of violence and arrests at Oowzer protests committed by Oowzers in ONE WEEK than there have been at Tea Party events since it's inception...
:D
Hmm...I seem to smell a bit of red scare in the air...
So, you think that all those America Haters supporting the Oowzers is completely irrelevant??
Would you say the same thing if all those America Haters supported the Tea Party???
No you wouldn't so don't even bother to try...
You smell "red scare" in the air..
I smell political bigotry...
Michale.....
There are more documented cases of violence and arrests [snip] in ONE WEEK than there have been at Tea Party events since it's inception...
even if true (which i'm not conceding as proven), that's a meaningless comparison. tea-partiers had six protest days in their entire inaugural year. even strung together (which they weren't), even if they'd slept there (which they didn't), that is less than a week of protest. as you are fond of saying, this is a comparison of apples and eskimos.
Did you even LOOK at that link??
Yes I did, and there are more than enough to prove my point...
Can you provide a comparable list of links from Tea Party events??
No, you can't...
No I can't but then when was I trying? Actually I addressed this with the "Some are messy, especially when the participants tend toward the young." comment.
Do you have a point? Are to trying to somehow say clean and lawful in an absolutist sense is the only important determiner when it comes to political message or movement?
So, you think that all those America Haters supporting the Oowzers is completely irrelevant??
Do you have proof that a majority of 99%ers asked for the support or are taking it in a material sense? Or can I get any group discredited by talking a generally disliked group to endorse them on a website or press release?
No you wouldn't so don't even bother to try...
Are you talking to the "left" or me personally? If it's the later, I think you would have a tough time proving it.
I smell political bigotry...
But then I don't think you make it past launching your browser before that happens whether it's there or not...
Bashi,
Yes I did, and there are more than enough to prove my point...
You'll have to cite them, because I counted, at most 3...
No I can't but then when was I trying?
Good, at least we are in agreement on that..
Do you have a point? Are to trying to somehow say clean and lawful in an absolutist sense is the only important determiner when it comes to political message or movement?
No, but if you have assaults, sexual assaults, drug deals, deaths, more sexual assaults, rapes, prostitution and more, ON A DAILY BASIS, it's a pretty safe bet that the group involved does NOT represent 99% of Americans...
Do you have proof that a majority of 99%ers asked for the support or are taking it in a material sense?
Doesn't matter if they asked for it or not.. The simple fact that Nazis or Communists or Terrorists agree with the Oowzers and their agenda is sufficient to
call into question that agenda...
Have the Oowzers refuted or refused the support from the Nazis and the Communists or the Terrorists??
No???
There ya go...
Regardless, you get free beer too, when you are in St Augustine.. :D
Michale....
tea-partiers had six protest days in their entire inaugural year. even strung together (which they weren't), even if they'd slept there (which they didn't), that is less than a week of protest. as you are fond of saying, this is a comparison of apples and eskimos.
It is undeniable that there hasn't been the level of arrests and assaults and violence when one compares the two movements...
But you are correct. It is meaningless insofar as that really applies with ANY protests from the Left..
Try as I might, I can't recall ANY reported protest or demonstration from the Left with a political theme/agenda that DIDN'T result in violence and/or arrests..
I am not saying that there hasn't been..
But apparently not enough to make it note-worthy..
Don't worry though.. You get free beer too... :D
Michale.....
Speaking of free beer......
Shouldn't we start planning the 2nd Annual CW.COM Holiday Fund Drive???
I think Liz mentioned it last week.. Time is growing short... :D
Michale.....
Regardless, you get free beer too, when you are in St Augustine.. :D
did someone say free beer?
On a more somber note:
Man found dead in Pioneer Park
The decision followed the death of a man who had been sleeping at the park in a tent. Investigators believe the man died from a combination of carbon monoxide poisoning due to a space heater inside his tent and a drug overdose. The man, whose body was discovered just after 10 a.m. Friday, was not immediately identified.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=1070&sid=18042323&title=man-found-dead-in-tent-at-pioneer-park
This has really gone on long enough.
How many people have to die before it's realized that the Oowzers, as a group, are ill-equipped to be doing what they are doing.
It's why we don't give M-16s to chimps...
Michale.....
For me as an Occupy supporter, the goal is to move public thought. It's been taken for granted that capitalism will be unchallenged, that money will buy power almost without restriction, that everyone works for "the Man" (i.e. owners) if they work at all, that the rich will always get richer while the poor won't, that the market is always the final authority, and so on.
It can be that way precisely because it is taken for granted. I aim to make it no longer be taken for granted.
Capital and labor should be on an equal footing. Capital should be widely distributed, not concentrated in the hands of a "capitalist class". A firm's role in society is to serve the customers, not the owners. Money necessarily is a form of power, but it's possible for the people to exercise a strong countervailing power. Goods markets are imperfect in the real world, but they fundamentally do work; financial markets fundamentally don't work. If people feel these truths in their bones, the world will change.
It will be a sea change, not a wave or a storm: one day the ocean is brownish-green, and the next day it's blue, for no reason that can be seen from on shore. That's what can happen if people's minds change. The power of the "masters of the universe" is mere froth on the surface compared to that of the "movers and shakers".
We are the music-makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams,
Wandering by lone sea-breakers,
And sitting by desolate streams.
World-losers and world-forsakers,
Upon whom the pale moon gleams;
Yet we are the movers and shakers,
Of the world forever, it seems.
Chris,
I believe I've seen a photo somewhere of an OWS protester at one of the encampments reading The Dispossessed.
While Le Guin's depiction of Annares anarchical world made a profound impact on my nascent political sensibilities 36 years ago (when I first read the novel), I'm rather astonished (and encouraged) to see the OWS movement—whether knowingly or unwittingly—make an effort to build a society remarkably similar to Shevek's world.
dsws:
It can be that way precisely because it is taken for granted. I aim to make it no longer be taken for granted.
Here! Here!
Shouldn't we start planning the 2nd Annual CW.COM Holiday Fund Drive?
Here here, Michale!
I'm in again to match up to $250 in donations.
—make an effort to build a society remarkably similar to Shevek's world.
Although I am not familiar with "Shevek's" world you have, inadvertently, hit on the exact problems of the Oowzers..
1. They have bitten off more than they can chew because they are trying to remake a society that, at it's core, does not WANT to be remade.
2. They fail miserably and their ineptitude is on display for all to see.
3. They want to remake a society that reflects the best of humanity, but they display all the uncivilized and barbaric traits that are the worst of humanity. And, again, it is on display for all to see..
About the only thing good I can say about the Oowzers is at least it hasn't de-evolved into what we witnessed with the UK riots with all the pilfering and looting..
YET....
Michale.....
Here here, Michale!
I'm in again to match up to $250 in donations.
Unless anyone comes up with a better (IE more lucrative for CW) plan, I'll likely stick with the tried and true .50 cents per post..
Last year, I think I hit around 220 posts between T-Giving and Xmas..
Gonna shoot for 500 this year!!!! :D
Gods help ya'all!!!! :D
Michale.....
Ya know, CW....
If you REALLY wanna pad your numbers, you could throw up an AGW commentary... :D hehehehehehehe
I'de likely end up donating THOUSANDS!! :D
Michale.....
3. They want to remake a society that reflects the best of humanity, but they display all the uncivilized and barbaric traits that are the worst of humanity. And, again, it is on display for all to see..
To be fair, not all the Oowzers are guilty of violent or uncivilized actions.. I will even go so far as to say the majority of Oowzers are not guilty of violent or uncivilized actions..
They ARE, however, guilty of not doing enough to reign in their violent members...
That is undeniable...
Michale.....
Michale and David,
I'm with you both, 5o cents per comment - a la Michale - up to a maximum of $250.
You remember well, Michale - it was 220 comments last year but things have become considerably more active around here since then!
We also have to step up our efforts to invite more of Chris's fans from HP over here to take part in some form or fashion as well.
It's time we all start supporting excellence in journalism!
It's time we all start supporting excellence in journalism!
Well said, Liz!
I'm with you both, 5o cents per comment - a la Michale - up to a maximum of $250.
Now how do we get you to comment more? Tim Geithner baiting ... :)
I'd pick on Joe Biden, but I have to admit you're the one who first pointed out some of his strengths and the more I've seen of him, the more I've liked.
-David
Now how do we get you to comment more? Tim Geithner baiting ... :)
Hey, David ... right now we have to worry about how to get Michale's comment count up to 500 between Thanksgiving and the end of the year and how to get others to match our matching pledges or a fraction of them!
I'm saving up my comments for when they actually count - in an effort to entice a few more out of Michale. You know how shy he can be about saying what's on his mind ...
The REAL 99% are speaking....
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Occupy-Wall-Street-Protest-of-the-Protest-Businesses-Residents-City-Hall-133796083.html
Enough is a enough...
Either piddle or get off the pot....
Michale....
You know how shy he can be about saying what's on his mind ...
Damn!!! They're on to me!!!! :D
Michale.....
Michale [37] -
LeGuin operates in the nebulous world between fantasy and hard sci-fi. Some of her novels (the Earthsea trilogy, for example) are almost pure fantasy, although she wove sci-fi throughout her writings as well. For instance, she's one of the few who ever explored time dialation in a meanginful way (um, Rocannon's World? I forget) -- about how traveling between planets and returning will mean everyone you knew is now dead (sans "warp speed" in other words).
But the word "ansible" was picked up by a lot of other authors, in the same way "waldo" was picked up from one of Heinlein's books to describe remote-controlled "hands" (like in a nuclear reactor).
dsws [40] -
HAH! Now that was funny, I have to admit!
Michale [43] -
This isn't a "Muslim" thing. Cities out here have the same problem (firing in celebration in the air) every New Year's Eve, for instance. With LOTS of folks.
Michale [52] -
OK, I'm going to start a different comment, because this is a different thread. I seem to remember a quote Michale used previously:
"I heard 'free beer' and then... what?"
Heh.
-CW
Holiday Fundraiser Announcement
Once again, I am overwhelmed that my readers have gotten on the fundraising train before it has left the station!
I will be getting some graphics ready and adapting the website for this year's fundraising drive some time over the Thanksgiving weekend.
In fact, the fund has already started with a $50 donation from a fan up in Big Sky Country. So we don't even start at zero this year! Woo hoo!
I'm overwhelmed as well by the "matching funds" idea, which again, came from you folks. I thank David/akadjian and Michale for their pledges (from Turkey Day to Xmas, bicker with Michale all you want, everyone, as it will cost him!). LizM's generous offer is likewise noted, although her comments are a lot easier on the eyes than Michale's, I have to say.
:-)
In any case, thanks to everyone for the show of support. It truly is you folks who keep me going here. To reward you, I promise even more kittens than last year's begging notice. How's that?
-CW
Shevek57 [56] -
That's interesting. The Dispossessed won best sci-fi novel of the year, as I recall. Or maybe that was Left Hand Of Darkness, or maybe even both.
LeGuin trivia: She wrote a story with the fictional place name "Omelas" which she got by reversing a highway sign she routinely saw in CA near the OR border: "Salem, O" (she lives in Oregon). And her mother was the scientist behind "Ishi in Two Worlds."
-CW
You know how shy he can be about saying what's on his mind ...
Heheheh. Indeed, Liz ... he's a delicate flower :)
@cw [70]
both the dispossessed and the left hand of darkness won both the hugo and nebula awards for best novel. she's one of only three authors to have two books win both. kudos if you can guess the other two.
she's one of only three authors to have two books win both. kudos if you can guess the other two.
You mean the other four. Five total. Though two of those are quite forgettable...
bashi,
well, it depends what you mean by books. i wasn't counting novellas, though i did forget a novel as well.
oh crap, i forgot another, you're right. grrr.
nypoet22 and BashiBazouk -
So how many are we talking about? 5?
Um, let's see... Heinlein has got to be one of them, and I'm going to go way out on a limb and guess that Asimov is another.
That leaves two... Orson Scott Card? He might have done it once, but maybe not twice. I would say Harlan Ellison, but he was kind of a bad boy, not one to win many awards... um... EM Forster?
OK, how about Frank Herbert and Zelazny? That's what I'm going with...
To be fair, I'm not going to google it until you have a chance to tell me how wrong I was...
:-)
The only one I'd bet the farm on is Heinlein. They had to create a special award (the "Grandmaster" award -- I have actually seen the original statuette he won, by the way, in the same library I'm currently haunting whilst researching....) for Robert A., to "kick him upstairs" and give others a chance, I do know that...
-CW
CW,
This isn't a "Muslim" thing. Cities out here have the same problem (firing in celebration in the air) every New Year's Eve, for instance. With LOTS of folks.
Really?? I have never heard of that..
As a person who is considered an expert with many forms of weaponry and firearms, I simply cringe at the idea of firing weapons in the air in celebration.
One of the first things I learned is that, what goes up MUST come down... :D
Michale.....
In any case, thanks to everyone for the show of support. It truly is you folks who keep me going here. To reward you, I promise even more kittens than last year's begging notice. How's that?
For the love of the gods and all that is holy..
PLEASE
No kittens!! :D
Don't MAKE me start placing your kitty in even more nefarious places!!! :D
Michale.....
The only one I'd bet the farm on is Heinlein.
you'd lose the farm. the ones i remembered were leguin, card and arthur c. clarke. asimov was the one who did it once for novel and once for novella. the ones i didn't know were haldeman and connie willis.
i haven't figured out what i'm giving cw.com this year, but i'm in.
The only reason I knew the answer was because of Connie Willis. I bought Doomsday Book then put it on a shelf and forgot about it. About a year later noticed it and read it. My god what an awful book. It was up there with Number of the Beast as one of the all time worst sci-fi books I have ever read. Went on line to figure out why I had bought such crap the first place only to find it won both awards. Must have been a really lean year for Sci-fi.
Evidently I'm one of the few who found Ender's Game really underwhelming. I read a lot of tech blogs and any time sci-fi books come up this is always held on a pedestal higher than Dune or Neuromancer. I don't get it...
What goes up must come down (unless it escapes the gravity well entirely, but firearms are nowhere near that). It comes down at terminal velocity, which depends strongly on the size of the object. Amazingly, none of the google hits seem to have anything to say about what size shot is harmless and what size bullet is deadly. I would venture a guess that any shot (as in buckshot or birdshot, rather than a bullet) will be non-lethal, if not entirely harmless.
I would venture a guess that any shot (as in buckshot or birdshot, rather than a bullet) will be non-lethal, if not entirely harmless.
Most of the documented cases of firearms discharge I am referring to are of the AK/automatic variety.
I can assure you that any projectile that is coming down will likely kill...
Bullets fired into the air usually fall back at speeds much lower than those at which they leave the barrel of a firearm. Nevertheless, people can be injured, sometimes fatally, when bullets discharged into the air fall back down. The mortality rate among those struck by falling bullets is about 32%, compared with about 2% to 6% normally associated with gunshot wounds.[5] The higher mortality is related to the higher incidence of head wounds from falling bullets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebratory_gunfire
No civilized society would allow such actions, let alone encourage such actions... The practice is banned and illegal in many US states including California, Texas, Arizona and Ohio.
There are many things I consider moronic bordering on plain stoopid...
Celebratory gunfire is one of those things..
Michale.....