Two Suggestions For Occupy Wall Street
The big question for the Occupy protests has now become: What next? With the multiple evictions across the country, the Occupiers have been given an ultimatum of sorts by the powers-that-be: protest and rally all you want, but you can't "occupy" these places any longer by erecting tents and making them your residences.
Of course, this could wind up being a silver lining. Because a lot of the Occupations were getting bogged down in the minutiae of the occupation itself, which seemed to draw the focus away from why they were there in the first place. If the cops and the mayors aren't going to tolerate an encampment, then that (in a way) solves all the problems arising from that encampment itself. Which could free up the protesters to focus more on the larger movement, rather than the details of each individual protest.
There is no guarantee, though. This could still wind up very badly, if the Occupiers decide that occupying is more important than any other goal. Which could easily lead to even uglier confrontations between police and protesters than we've already seen. And if the protest devolves into just fighting cops, it is going to lose both support and legitimacy among the general public. The protesters may be OK with this, but it certainly would be a shame.
But plenty of others have been asking the "What now?" question this week, so instead I'm going to take a look backwards at Occupy Wall Street, rather than offering up too much speculation on the way forwards. Because no matter what happens next, this could be the chance to make some fundamental changes to the movement's structure. Which is where I'd like to offer my humble suggestions.
To understand what changes may be desirable, we have to look at what has already been set up. The Occupy Wall Street movement has, at its core, a governing structure. They have set up their own government, in other words. This is fascinating to students of political science, because opportunities to see a new governing structure being born are actually quite rare. Especially one started from scratch, and one started with idealistic goals for how it should operate differently than what Americans already have.
The governing structure of Occupy Wall Street is a unicameral, uni-branch pure democracy with the astoundingly-high requirement that 90 percent agree to achieve "consensus." The functions of the Executive and Legislative branches are combined into one General Assembly, with rotating "facilitators" who organize the debates (don't call them "leaders" -- it is a taboo word). The Judicial functions seem not to exist, or are taken care of by the same General Assembly when they arise.
There is only one General Assembly, although they were attempting (before the raid) to perhaps streamline their process with what they called a "spokes council" (not "spoke" as in past tense of "speak," but rather "spoke" like on a bicycle wheel). The creation of this spokes council was contentious, and has only met three times so far, so it's hard to tell how it would have eventually fit in to the General Assembly structure. I should mention that all my information comes from the official website of the Occupy Wall Street General Assembly (nycga.net), where they helpfully post meeting minutes for the world to see.
Like any government, the General Assembly quickly set up smaller groups for individual issues -- it is impossible for one large group to make every tiny decision, after all (the U.S. Congress has hundreds of committees and subcommittees, by way of example). The problem so far (as I see it, this is just one outsider's opinion, mind you) is that there are currently over 87 of these groups listed, and they seem to have quite a bit of overlap among certain areas. The spokes council seems to have been created to help streamline the process of all these groups reporting their activities and requesting decisions from the larger governing structure.
So far, they haven't been noticeably successful, but then the spokes council has only had three meetings, two of which were taken up with which groups were going to be classified as "operational" groups (out of a list of 50 groups) that the spokes council would deal with. The third meeting was almost entirely consumed by questions of process and complaints.
This is the larger problem. Questions of process (and what can only be called "nitpicking") are consuming almost all the available time. The General Assembly is supposed to only meet two hours every night, although from the minutes it seems they regularly run over schedule, for virtually every agenda item. The facilitators attempt the Herculean task of moving the debate along and achieving a 90% "consensus" from the assembly (in reality a "vote," although for some reason that's a taboo word as well).
Reading the minutes of their meetings is no more (nor less) convoluted than reading any other governing body's minutes -- the House of Representatives or the Senate, say. Occupy Wall Street doesn't run by Robert's Rules of Order, but they do run by their own standards and technicalities of debate. This bogs the process down, but is necessary to prevent complete confusion.
But the General Assembly itself is problematic, if the protest really is going to morph into a movement that can survive evictions. In the first place, they are exclusive by definition. To participate, you've got to physically be present. This is the exact opposite of the model of online social networking, to put it another way. The second problem that the General Assembly has is their insanely-high standard of ten percent of the crowd being able to veto anything. This leads to lots of lively discussions, but very few key decisions being made. And since "Occupy Wall Street" will not take a stand on anything that the General Assembly hasn't pre-approved, this cripples their ability to quickly respond to just about anything (imagine the U.S. Senate only being able to stop a filibuster with a 90 percent vote, for example). The ability to respond to false media reports, for example, get bogged down in many circular debates over semantics (actual quote: "The word legitimate is, I don't know, like, is it legitimate? I don't know.").
This really shows up whenever one of the working groups tries to propose some sort of statement of what the goals of the group should be. These are, almost inevitably, tabled by the General Assembly (or simply punted to a future meeting without even opening debate, usually due to lack of time). One working group, "Theoretical Praxis" seems to be making a mighty attempt to come up with some sort of overall strategy (there are other groups working on things like possible demands, I should mention). They seem to be making slow but steady progress on their task, but when they ask the General Assembly for feedback (here, on whether to reach out and build bridges to the outside world), they get responses such as: "We are skeptical of our ability to meaningfully engage with the old system on their terms without being co-opted. But we are also skeptical in light of what I just said, of being able to advance our movement without a more active confrontation of that system." Um, OK. So should you engage with the system, or not?
In two months of occupation, the Occupy Wall Street folks have made some strides towards defining their movement on their own terms. On their site, they have listed a few things the General Assemblies have agreed upon. To be scrupulously fair, setting up a complete governmental structure from scratch is a very hard thing to do, even without coming up with a mission statement as well. America put out her mission statement in 1776, but it wasn't until 1789 that we came up with our governmental structure -- and that was after the first one we tried failed miserably (the Articles of Confederation). The Constitution wasn't written in a day, or even in two months' time. This stuff is hard work.
I would personally like Occupy Wall Street to grow into a larger "We are the 99 Percent" movement, that is much more inclusive of the 99-plus percent of Americans who may agree with them but cannot travel to lower Manhattan. I do not know if this is going to happen or not.
But I do have two suggestions, at a bare minimum. Since the General Assemblies almost always run out of time, why not spend more than two hours a day in session? Have a morning session, an afternoon session, and an evening session -- right there, you'd triple your ability to move things forward. Secondly, create some sort of rapid-response media team who can articulate the positions the General Assembly has already taken, to get your message out to the rest of the world in a timely way, whenever your group becomes the center of the media's attention. You, quite rightly, decry the media when they attempt to define your movement -- but you simply have to reach out to them and define yourselves at the same time, or you are wasting a golden opportunity to communicate -- with the very 99 percent you say you are championing.
Tomorrow, a large rally (with unions marching in solidarity) had already been planned in New York, to mark the movement's two-month "birthday." There are plans to create some very media-friendly displays. This is all fine and good. But after Thursday is over, Occupy Wall Street should devote itself entirely to the "What next?" larger questions. In doing so, they should examine what is working and what is not in their own organization. The movement has a chance to grow (by leaps and bounds) beyond occupying one park. It's a golden opportunity, and I hope they don't miss it.
-- Chris Weigant
Cross-posted at Business Insider
Cross-posted at The Huffington Post
Follow Chris on Twitter: @ChrisWeigant
And we complain that Democrats can never get anything done because they lack party discipline. Some of the same people who praise this form of decision-making will pivot on a breath and tell you that Obama has failed because he's a consensus-builder.
Say what you want about authoritarians (and I so will!) but they ARE organized.
Matt,
Some of the same people who praise this form of decision-making will pivot on a breath and tell you that Obama has failed because he's a consensus-builder.
Precisely.
I have no problem with the Occupy Wall Street movement, regardless of their "governing structure", or lack thereof, just so long as they don't do anything that would tend towards getting Republicans elected in 2012.
Beyond that, OWS appears to me to be a movement going nowhere, fast.
Ok, today is supposed to be a day of nationwide peaceful protests for the OWS.
Anyone want to take a bet on the number of arrests? A pool who comes closest? Over under 50 or over under 100 for better odds?
As to "We are the 99 Percent" What about the 100% that are Americans?
Do the 99% all have the best interest of America as their objective and the 1% don't?
I believe most of Chris's readers and certainly Chris himself have the best interest of America at heart even when I disagree with his opinions.
But Bill Gates is the top .0001% and skin headed, neo-nazi racists are part of the 99%. Who is better for America?
Some of the same people who praise this form of decision-making will pivot on a breath and tell you that Obama has failed because he's a consensus-builder.
Heheheh. Well said and funny, Matt.
This is fascinating to students of political science, because opportunities to see a new governing structure being born are actually quite rare. Especially one started from scratch, and one started with idealistic goals for how it should operate differently than what Americans already have.
Indeed. It's interesting that you mention social networking, CW. Because that's where I see the real underlying and lasting change as opposed to the GA assemblies (as interesting as they are). The Internet and social networking have the potential to dramatically change government in ways I'm not sure we've even thought of yet. Think what our government might look like if our country had been founded during the age of the Internet.
-David
9:44 AM – Today
New York Daily News Reports 50 Arrests
nydailynews @ nydailynews : Our police bureau chief reports about 50 #OWS-related arrests so far this morning http://t.co/Vn0ryUyx
Didnt take long for those peace loving OWS to prove me right !! LOL
" if the protest devolves into just fighting cops, it is going to lose both support and legitimacy among the general public. The protesters may be OK with this, but it certainly would be a SHAME."
here is me humming because I cant sing "From the day he was born, he was trouble.
He was the thorn in his mother's side.
She tried in vain, but he never caused her nothing but SHAME."
Well, they got attested trying to block access to the New York Stock Exchange. Many cases in American protests of getting arrested for being mostly peaceful. Your link is dead, but a live blog from the same site does not conflict the above. Got anything real?
@6 bashi, that was a cut and paste from Huffpo
But I am watching it live on CNN and it is a hoot!! The protests just went crazy at Zucotti Park but the police seem to have contained it already.
I think the arrest count in NYC alone is over 70 now....
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/17/occupy-wall-street-two-month_n_1099122.html
again this info will be time sensitive so as of 11:22 we have:
11:12 AM – Today
Police And Protesters Clash At Zuccotti
10:47 AM – Today
Report: Now Up To 60 Arrests
Nothing has been confirmed, but New York Daily News reporting 60 arrests this mornin...............
Tonight is going to be a BAD night for the country in my opinion.
I am thinking Watts riots of 65 type bad or the 68 riots after the killing of Dr King type bad.
So this was the Mother Of All Protests that the Oowzers promised??? :D
Michale.....
This was posted by the guy who founded Sprint PCS ...
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/11/17/1037345/-One-Person%E2%80%99s-View-From-His-1-Perch?via=spotlight
Lots of excellent points in there on what and where to focus on. Fantastic article from the 1% :)
-David
Lots of excellent points in there on what and where to focus on. Fantastic article from the 1% :)
Seems to me that the 1% are not the horrible demons that the Oowzers (and Democrats) would like us to believe, eh?? :D
Michale.....
The question regarding the Oowzers is clear....
W.W.C.R.D </B<
What Would Commissioner Reagan Do
:D
Michale.....
Oh frak!!!! :^/
Michale.....
3 PM EST,
CNN TV reports arrests at 170 in NYC (injured police 7)
CNN TV reports arrests at 170 in NYC (injured police 7)
CW, you are absolutely prophetic....
Michale.....
This could still wind up very badly, if the Occupiers decide that occupying is more important than any other goal.
Ding, Ding, Ding, We have a winner!! Johnny, tell 'im what he's won!!!
You nailed it..
The Oowzers want to defy authority. THAT is and always has been their goal.. Period.
They are like children..
If you tell them they can protest in the park, but they can't camp, they'll fight tooth and nail to camp. If you tell them they can protest and camp in the park but they can't bring generators, they'll fight tooth and nail to bring generators.. If you tell them they can protest in the park, they can bring bring generators but they can't crap and piss in public, then they'll ignore the orders and crap and piss in public..
I saids it before and I'll says it again. They are like malcontent spoiled teenagers and nothing I have seen reported disputes that opinion...
"We are skeptical of our ability to meaningfully engage with the old system on their terms without being co-opted. But we are also skeptical in light of what I just said, of being able to advance our movement without a more active confrontation of that system."
This is EXACTLY why important things simply cannot be done by committee..
For better or worse, there HAS to be some form of leadership...
My suggestion for the Oowzers is as before. Disband, go home, think things thru, ORGANIZE and come back in the spring with a new name..
Hell, it worked for ACORN..
Also, consider this. If the Oowzer movement devolves into a all out brawl with the cops, it's going to make it harder or even impossible for a REAL protest group down the road to get started..
The American people are getting sick and tired of the Oowzers. This is well documented. What happens when another protest movement wants to get started down the road and is met with an angry public, RIGHT FROM THE START??
Does the Left REALLY want to put all it's credibility and support in the Oowzer basket??
Because that is what is happening with ya'all's continued support of the Oowzers. Support that is contrary to common sense..
The way things are going (downhill and picking up speed (as I predicted)) it will only end very very badly for the Oowzers..
And it will drag the Democrats down with them..
Oh yes, the Independents and the NPAs haven't forgotten that Democrats jumped on the Oowzer bandwagon early and often..
"OOoooohoooo Johnny, did you back the wrong horse."
-Peter Venkman, GHOSTBUSTERS II
Michale.....
I just got back from my local Occupy. These are good kids, doing something they think is right. I took dinner down (soup, bread, pie), dropt it off, and drove off, coming back a few minutes later to watch (I don't hang around when I take food. The time for old war stories is when they realize that another generation has already done this).
For the most part, these are kids are caught up in the first (to them) great struggle of their lives. There is a sprinkling of older (mid 30s) less enthused (tho no less determined), and few of us who've been there and back. I don't care what anyone says, I'm proud of these kids. They are trying to do the right thing.
The gleeful, hatefilled listing of what is wrong, what will go wrong, and the consequences of this is irrelevent. Just as the people who were gleeful and hatefilled predicting the rollback of gains in the South in '69 and '70 are now irrelevant.
They are trying to do the right thing.
Maybe... But I think the dozen or so cops that have been injured would disagree with you..
Your attempt to cast these lusers as comparable to the Civil Rights movement is ludicrous and moronic to the point of insulting...
No one... ABSOLUTELY NO ONE is holding these kids back from succeeding...
Nothing... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING is holding these kids back from succeeding...
The ONLY thing that is holding these kids back from succeeding is their own piss poor attitude that this country owes them a living...
Their laziness is the problem..
Their sense of entitlement is the problem..
Their immaturity is the problem..
And people who encourage the laziness and the entitlement and the immaturity are the problem..
Michale.....
I am sensing a little (OK a LOT ) of inconsistencies here..
One of the biggest beefs I hear coming from the Oowzers is that they are pissed about the bail-outs that the banks and Wall Street got..
Then why aren't they demonstrating in front of the White House and the Capitol Building??
It was Obama and the Democrats who pushed those bailouts??
Why not demonstrate against the actual people who DID the bailouts???
Anyone??? Anyone??? Buehler????
Michale.....
The gleeful, hatefilled listing of what is wrong, what will go wrong, and the consequences of this is irrelevent. Just as the people who were gleeful and hatefilled predicting the rollback of gains in the South in '69 and '70 are now irrelevant.
I'll put up a thousand quatloos that the Oowzers won't survive the year...
By Jan 2012, we'll be saying, "So what happened to all those whiney protestors???"
You heard it here first.... :D
Michale......
Get the hell off my lawn, you kids!
Just to balance out the doom and gloom from Michale & tinsldr2, from the associated press:
The marches were for the most part peaceful, with only scattered clashes between police and demonstrators. Most of the arrests were for blocking streets, the traffic disruptions were brief, and the turnout, at least in New York, fell well short of what police had been expecting.
It was Obama and the Democrats who pushed those bailouts??
TARP was while Bush was still president. Nice try.
I'll put up a thousand quatloos that the Oowzers won't survive the year...
"i'm yer huckleberry."
~tombstone
come new years, one way or the other, we'll settle up. :)
DING!
DerFarm wrote:
For the most part, these are kids are caught up in the first (to them) great struggle of their lives. There is a sprinkling of older (mid 30s) less enthused (tho no less determined), and few of us who've been there and back. I don't care what anyone says, I'm proud of these kids. They are trying to do the right thing.
..........
What the h?
I flew to Iraq on my last trip there with a bunch of young "kids" 18-25 year olds. I flew over with an infantry company at the start of the 2007 'surge'. Was March 2007. We all knew many of them would not be coming home.
It was my 5th deployment and 2nd to Iraq and as a 45 year old major working Computer network stuff in the Division HQ I was safe.
But the young kids without the combat patches yet who would be patrolling the streets during the height of the Surge?
I was PROUD of THOSE kids.
Some kids on a camping trip in NYC or whatever using daddy's money and complaining about student loan debt and the fact they didnt get Wall Street jobs themselves?
Sorry, and not to be over melodramatic but a bit of perspective is in order.....
Two US Soldiers died in Kirkuk this month from Combat.
And you are proud of kids at an Obamaville OWS encampment?
So, you can't be proud of both?
Bashi,
One group dying and doing what they do for country and fellow brothers in Arms.
Their country asked them to do something and they did it.
The other group ranting and raving and tearing down their country asking the country to do something for them.
No I can not be proud of both. The Soldiers are doing something Nobel that men do. They EARN my respect and eternal admiration.
But these folks? http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/17/us/new-york-occupy/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
At least 177 protesters were arrested during Thursday's demonstrations, said Police Commissioner Ray Kelly, who noted that seven police officers were also hurt during exchanges with protesters.
Five of those officers were injured when a unidentified liquid was thrown on their faces, Kelly said, who added that the officers experienced a burning sensation and required hospitalization.
~~~ No, I am not proud of SCUM like that.
And the other 95% that were peaceful?
Should I troll the net to find stories about the few bad apples in the troops sent to Iraq and try to paint all troops with the same brush?
Bashi,
THIMK, boy, THIMK!!!
Tin Soldier 2 said:
"Their country asked them to do something and they did it. "
He is NOT RIGHT. THEIR COUNTRY DIDN'T. Their GOVERNMENT DID. Just like VietNam. Liberal democrats did the bidding of warmongering enablers. The RAPE of the Nat'l Guard making kids go back 3,4,5 times is totally repugnant and OBAMA IS PART OF IT. The fact that this LIBERAL President allows this, encourages this, NEEDS this is ...... beyond words.
"Sufficient unto to day, is the evil thereof". I said above that Tnsold2 is not right. He is also not wrong. These children (my mother's words, not mine) are doing what they are told ... just like me and my brother and my best friend ....... we were USED.
Occupy represents the best chance in 40 years to stop the using.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSdItuvBxc8
That old man would rant and rave and cuss a blue streak about Occupy. Then he'd join the sumbitches. And piss and moan for the next 4 months.
Bashi,
The marches were for the most part peaceful, with only scattered clashes between police and demonstrators. Most of the arrests were for blocking streets, the traffic disruptions were brief, and the turnout, at least in New York, fell well short of what police had been expecting.
"Mostly" peaceful??
"Scattered" arrests??
It's pretty sad that your anti gloom and doom still has violence and arrests... :D
TARP was while Bush was still president. Nice try.
The first TARP was started by Bush. But Obama doubled and tripled down on it, in spades..
Does Bush get some of the blame??
You betcha and that ain't no moose poop.. :D
But it is undeniable that Obama has run up the national debt (or deficit) higher than any president before him COMBINED...
Financially, Obama and the Democrats have run this country into the ground.. If Obama was the CEO and Democrats were the board of USA Inc, they would have been shit canned a LONG time ago..
And yet, YOU think they are the best hope for this country??
Joshua,
come new years, one way or the other, we'll settle up. :)
Damn skippy!!! :D
Bashi,
So, you can't be proud of both?
Why be "proud" of the Oowzers...
Other than forcing BofA (I mention this because I disagree with CW, that the Oowzers don't own Move Your Money) to back down on outrageous fees, what have the Oowzers accomplished??
Let's see...
The have destroyed a vibrant NYC neighborhood.
They have caused millions of dollars in lost revenue by area businesses.
They have caused billions of dollars in state and city costs.
They have caused job losses at a time when jobs are scarce.
They have destroyed private property.
Now, that's what the Oowzers have caused AS A GROUP....
Sans the BofA backdown, they have done ALL of that but haven't accomplished one damn thing...
What the HELL is there to be proud of???
And the other 95% that were peaceful?
The other 95% are still destroying a vibrant NYC neighborhood.
Are still causing millions of dollars in lost revenue by area businesses.
Are still causing billions of dollars in state and city costs.
Are still causing job losses at a time when jobs are scarce.
Are still destroying private and public property.
All the while, not accomplishing a damn thing...
That's your 95%, Bashi...
What about the 100% of the people who are being terrorized, inconvenienced, financially hurt??
What about THEM???
What about THEIR rights??
Why do you care more for a bunch of inconsiderate spoiled brats???
Whose side are you on???
Because it sure as hell ain't the REALL 99%...
Should I troll the net to find stories about the few bad apples in the troops sent to Iraq and try to paint all troops with the same brush?
I'll make a deal with you Bashi...
In a previous thread, I posted 30 links to articles about how bad the Oowzers are and the atrocious acts they committed. Those links span a three week period..
Pick a 3-week span during the Iraq war. ANY 3-week span, starting from March 2003 thru today..
If you can find 30 articles outlining atrocious acts committed by US troops in Iraq, I'll concede that the Oowzers don't own the violence...
If you can't, then you concede that the Oowzers do own the violence that is being committed by their people...
Deal???
DF,
Occupy represents the best chance in 40 years to stop the using.
If this is true, then the gods are really frakin' us over... BIG TIME... :D
Michale.....
In the middle of thousands of protestors yelling and chanting — some kicking and screaming – CBS 2’s Emily Smith found little school kids trying to get to class. Nervous parents led them through the barriers on Wall Street. The NYPD helped funnel the children, anything to ease their fears while some protestors chanted “follow those kids!”
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/11/17/ows-protesters-chant-follow-those-kids-as-small-children-try-to-go-to-school-on-wall-street/
Now the Oowzers are terrorizing school children. Yea, real pillars of society there... :^/
Oh, but that wasn't the Oowzers, right???
{shaking head sadly}
I'll ask again..
What have the Oozers down to be proud of???
Michale.....
-- At about the same time, a contingent of protesters decided to storm City Hall, but unknowingly ran to the Department of Education building on Chambers Street. Once there, they comically chanted, “Bloomberg must go! Bloomberg must go!”
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/roughly_people_demonstration_gathered_dqucDJs1oJYCdedLgh4rwL#ixzz1e3V5lHER
Now THAT's funny!!
hehehehehehehehehehehehe
Someone needs to give the Oowzers a map!! :D
Michale.....
Ok so I admit much less damage and destruction by the Obamavillians' then I thought.
Only what 400 arrests nationwide and about 250 in NYC?
DerFarm wrote:
Tin Soldier 2 said:
"Their country asked them to do something and they did it. "
He is NOT RIGHT. THEIR COUNTRY DIDN'T. Their GOVERNMENT DID.
..........
Well In 2003 the country had enormous support for the war among the populace and the politicians both.
So it was the COUNTRY that asked them to go.
Ok the cows , trees and mountains didnt ask them to go, but the PEOPLE did. And by 2007 the people may have turned against it but they had the job of seeing the thing through..
And by 2007 the people may have turned against it but they had the job of seeing the thing through..
AND the responsibility...
Michale.....
The first TARP was started by Bush. But Obama doubled and tripled down on it, in spades..
Uh...there was only one TARP. The later stimulus package was not about banks...
I'll make a deal with you Bashi...
In a previous thread, I posted 30 links to articles about how bad the Oowzers are and the atrocious acts they committed. Those links span a three week period..
Pick a 3-week span during the Iraq war. ANY 3-week span, starting from March 2003 thru today..
Since many of your links are fox news, do I get to use islamic news sources :-)
Well, I might have a hard time finding articles about US troops in Iraq opening banks accounts...
Once I paired down the wheat for the chaff I probably could. There is a lot of chaff in them there list. Some chaff examples:
Headline: Man arrested for sexual assault of 14-year old at 'Occupy Dallas' camp
Read the story and you find out that the runaway had consensual sex and told police later she lied to the young man and told him she was 19...
Headline: Child services seizes baby at 'Occupy Dallas'
Read the article and it turns out the family was homeless and using the occupiers camp as a place to sleep. The occupiers themselves called family protective services about the baby. Aren't you constantly railing about the 99%ers not policing themselves? Seems like you should be praising them here not adding it to a list of "problems"...
Me thinks you either just posted explosive headlines and did not read the articles or just hoped nobody would bother...
the Occupiers have been given an ultimatum of sorts by the powers-that-be: protest and rally all you want, but ...
It's not "protest and rally all you want". It's "protest and rally only a limited number of hours per day".
Traditional protests and rallies are utterly useless. The only people who will see you at such a rally are those who already agree with you enough to have attended the same rally. If you want to do a traditional rally as a feel-good social event, fine. You should have the right to do so, same as you have the right to organize a knitting club. But a traditional rally doesn't really have much more right to first-amendment protection than a knitting club event. Traditional rallies don't need any protection: any interest group they seek to oppose knows they're useless, and therefore won't bother to try to suppress them.
The Occupy encampments are core political speech. They actually involve addressing a political message to the general public.
Since many of your links are fox news, do I get to use islamic news sources :-)
BBBBBBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Wrong.. Out of the 30, only 3 were FNC.... :D
Read the story and you find out that the runaway had consensual sex and told police later she lied to the young man and told him she was 19...
So.... If the details don't matter if it was at a Tea Party rally (which I am sure you would agree they would not) then they don't matter at an Oowzer sleepover...
Read the article and it turns out the family was homeless and using the occupiers camp as a place to sleep. The occupiers themselves called family protective services about the baby. Aren't you constantly railing about the 99%ers not policing themselves? Seems like you should be praising them here not adding it to a list of "problems"...
So, you are agreeing that an Oowzer sleep over is an unsafe place for a child...
I agree... So, anyone who takes their kids to an Oowzer rally should have them taken away..
I don't see anything in your justifications that ARE justifications..
But hay.. You know I am easy.. :D
Take the 3 FNC articles away and those weak justifications you brought up..
You find 25 articles that show the disgusting, perverse and hypocritical actions of our troops and I'll gladly admit that the Oowzers are in the same class as US Armed Forces personnel fighting in a warzone overseas...
Have at it... :D
Michale.....
Plus the support from China article, the open bank accounts articles and so on and so forth...as I said, lots of chaff.
I don't see anything in your justifications that ARE justifications..
Of course you wouldn't, it would degrade your argument. Still, it doesn't change the fact a good amount of your posted articles are about outsiders using the 99%ers protest camps for their own nefarious reasons rather than actions of the 99%ers themselves.
The wisdom of the Oowzers....
"Look at when the Native Americans were here. They were sleeping wherever they wanted. Nobody should have the right to own land like this. I think that we should have the right to sleep anywhere that we want."
I think this Oowzer may be on to something!!!
I have the right to sleep wherever Charlize Theron sleeps!!!!
:D
It would be so laughable if it weren't so tragically sad...
These are the people ya'all support???
REALLY!????
Michale.....
Bashi,
Of course you wouldn't, it would degrade your argument. Still, it doesn't change the fact a good amount of your posted articles are about outsiders using the 99%ers protest camps for their own nefarious reasons rather than actions of the 99%ers themselves.
Oh OK...
So, let's make it easier for me..
Your argument is that ANYTHING that is evil, disgusting, perverse, illegal or just plain wrong is just "outsiders using the 99%ers protest camps for their own nefarious reasons rather than actions of the 99%ers themselves."...
Despite all the claims and facts to the contrary, anything bad happeneing is not really the Oowzers..
Anything pure, goodness and right... Now THAT is coming from the Oowzers...
Does that about sum up your argument??
Will you EVER admit that the Oowzers are acting just plain moronic???
Because, if you can't even admit it to yourself, then there is no sense in me posting all these FACTS about the Oowzers...
I have also noticed how ya'all simply ignore the question of what about the rights of the people the Oowzers are hurting, terrorizing or inconveniencing???
Oh wait... I forgot. That's not the Oowzers doing that, even though it IS at Oowzer events and the people doing it say they are Oowzers..
I forgot The Oowzer Rule.. If it's good, decent and pure, it's the Oowzers..
If it's evil, wrong, perverse, illegal and/or disgusting, it "MUST" be outsiders...
You live in a very happy world, Bashi... :D
Too bad it ain't the real world...
Michale.....
Answer me one question, though..
Do I or do I not have the right to sleep wherever Charlize Theron sleeps???
Michale.....
Maybe you can really dumb it down for me and explain how I can tell the difference between a real Oowzer and an "outsider using the Oowzers for nefarious purposes"...
Because, obviously, factual things like they are part of the Oowzer group and saying they are Oowzers is not sufficient evidence to prove they are Oowzers..
So, please.. Enlighten me...
How can we tell an Oowzer from an Outsider???
Michale....
Does that about sum up your argument??
No, that sums up your delusional version of my argument. Sure some of the 99%ers are doing questionable things. The difference is you want to blame the entire movement and every person in attendance for every little thing that happens because you are against the movement, and I want to blame individuals as I do not mind the existence of the movement.
If it's evil, wrong, perverse, illegal and/or disgusting, it "MUST" be outsiders...
No. But it is outsiders quite often as your own links prove. Don't paint me as an diametric opposition absolutist, that's your domain.
You live in a very happy world, Bashi... :D
Too bad it ain't the real world...
I do. It's called having perspective, and it's in the very real world...
No, that sums up your delusional version of my argument. Sure some of the 99%ers are doing questionable things. The difference is you want to blame the entire movement and every person in attendance for every little thing that happens because you are against the movement, and I want to blame individuals as I do not mind the existence of the movement.
So...
Using your reasoning, Al Qaeda and Hamas are not terrorist organizations and you only blame the individual terrorists, not the movement...
Interesting perspective..
Too bad it's provisional.. Based on the political orientation of the group in question...
I do. It's called having perspective, and it's in the very real world...
Your "perspective" is based on political orientation..
You blamed the entire Tea Party for the Debt Ceiling debacle, even though the numbers actually involved in it were much MUCH smaller than the Oowzers doing "questionable acts"....
So, why would you condemn the entire Tea Party for the acts of a few, but you have HUNDREDS of Oowzers arrested, HUNDREDS of jobs lost, millions of dollars in lost revenue and destruction, BILLIONS of dollars of state and city expenses and yet, you won't condemn the Oowzers...
Me thinks your "perspective" is politically biased...
Michale.....
Michale wrote:
Answer me one question, though..
Do I or do I not have the right to sleep wherever Charlize Theron sleeps???
Michale.....
........
It doesnt matter if I have that right or not, The wife would kill me if I exercised it.
LOL
Sorry, thought that needed to be said :) have a great weekend all
It doesnt matter if I have that right or not, The wife would kill me if I exercised it.
Touche' :D
Michale.....
HUNDREDS of jobs lost, millions of dollars in lost revenue and destruction, BILLIONS of dollars of state and city expenses
For the record, the Oowzers **AS A GROUP** are responsible for all of that..
You can't blame all of that on "outsiders"....
Michale.....
...BILLIONS of dollars of state and city expenses and yet, you won't condemn the Oowzers...
Billions? exaggerate much?
You can't blame all of that on "outsiders"....
Still trying to make up my argument for me? Please, where did I blame all of that on the outsiders? I blamed, and I know this is difficult for you to understand, some to much of it on the outsiders. I was going on links you posted. Don't blame me if you are not going to read your own links.
Billions? exaggerate much?
Yea, a little.. :D
I blamed, and I know this is difficult for you to understand, some to much of it on the outsiders.
Yes, you blamed ALL of the assaults, the rapes, the destruction of private and public property, the crapin' and pissin' in public and the terrorizing on "outsiders"...
But the one FACT that you cannot deny is that the Oowzers **AS A GROUP** are responsible for the loss of jobs, the loss of income and the (at BEST) gross inconvenience of the REAL 99%...
All of that CANNOT be blamed on "outsiders".. That is the Oowzers, pure and simple...
All the other stuff is the Oowzers too, but I know you would rather knaw your own arm off than admit that the Oowzers are scum of the earth...
I also noticed you failed to address the point that, in your mind, the Oowzers group cannot be held responsible for the actions of a few thousand Oowzer activists, yet you "hold the Tea Party" in it's entirety, responsible for the Debt Ceiling debacle.. (I can give you the link, if your memory needs refreshed. :D)
Why is it that the Left wing protest group gets a pass for the actions of it's individual members, but the Right wing protest group is responsible for the actions of it's individual members??
Michale....
Because a sizable proportion of the vocal tea party were demanding the debt ceiling to not be raised. I have yet to hear any of the 99%ers call for assaults, rapes, crapin' and pissin' in public and terrorizing...
I have yet to hear any of the 99%ers call for assaults, rapes, crapin' and pissin' in public and terrorizing...
And I have yet to hear or see any sizable portion of the 99%ers stop the violence and the assaults and the rapes and the terrorizing.
Silence gives assent..
It's a moot point. You simply will ignore all the facts that show that Oowzers are costing the REAL 99%ers jobs and money...
And doing so without accomplishing one damn thing..
These are the facts, whether you choose to acknowledge them or not.
Michale.....
And for anyone still out there ... this is a great post.
http://upwithchrishayes.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/19/8896362-exclusive-lobbying-firms-memo-spells-out-plan-to-undermine-occupy-wall-street-video
Clark Lytle Geduldig and Crawford is a lobbying firm with a long list of corporate clients.
Also, check out there website. Before they take it down that is.
-David
I took some screen grabs of CLGC's website in case they decide it needs to be a little less blatant :)
http://thereckoner.com/?p=195
The city of SF has declared the Oowzer camp a "Public Nuisance"...
Of course, ya'all will claim that it's not really an Oowzer camp, but rather an "Outsider" camp... :^/
To paraphrase Darth Vader...
"The capacity for self-delusion is strong with these ones"
:D
Michale....
Exactly, Michale. When you're afraid of the message, attack the messenger. Demonize them. Make them criminals. That's exactly what CLGC is looking to do.
Change the subject to anything else. Because if you don't, people might start to realize that they have some good points.
-David
When you're afraid of the message,
No one is afraid of the message, David..
There isn't a middle class American who doesn't agree with the message...
The problem that the American public has with the Oowzers is HOW they are delivering the message.
Causing people to lose their jobs and causing cash-strapped municipalities to spend tens of millions of dollars is NOT the way to address the issue..
Setting up slum tent cities that have to have "Female Safe Areas" and are declared "Public Nuisances" by the most liberal city in the world is NOT the way to send a message.
Why can't you see that??
The Oowzers are their own worst enemies..
. Because if you don't, people might start to realize that they have some good points.
Americans already know they have some "good points"...
The Palestinians have "good points"...
But the way both parties choose to address and publicize their plight completely negates any legitimacy they might have...
CW has given them some really good suggestions. So have I...
But if they don't follow them, the Oowzers won't last the year...
Michale.....
Why can't you see that??
Easy, my friend. We're just talking here. It's almost Thanksgiving ... :)
Perhaps another question to ask is, why do the police show up in full riot gear at Occupy protests?
Apparently, other countries are starting to get the message from us. This message is that you only have rights so long as you agree with those in power.
http://gawker.com/5861191/
-David
What did these students do that merited being pepper sprayed?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjnR7xET7Uo
What did these protesters do that merited getting billy clubbed?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqQcAz5RQYw
Easy, my friend. We're just talking here. It's almost Thanksgiving ... :)
Sorry, that came out too harsh... :D
Perhaps another question to ask is, why do the police show up in full riot gear at Occupy protests?
Probably because the vast majority of these kinds of events end in violence...
Imagine the carnage if the rioters/protesters could mow down the cops.. What's to stop them from going on a rampage??
Apparently, other countries are starting to get the message from us. This message is that you only have rights so long as you agree with those in power.
No, you only have rights as long as you don't infringe on the rights of others...
For some reason, your videos would not play on my machine... I'll check 'em when I get home.
However I can give you some general guidelines on Use Of Force..
If protestors resist, they have, in effect, drew first blood. Therefore Use Of Force is authorized.
Use Of Force is also not a one for one application. If a protester resists with their body, police are authorized to use non-lethal weapons such as PR-24s or Chemical Irritants. If a protestor resists with a club, bat or knife, they are libel to be shot... That is within the rules of engagement...
Other factors that come into play is the history of the particular group and the entire group as a whole. If cops in NYC get doused with a unknown chemical agent or assaulted with paper covered lead pipes or attacked with burning and flammable objects, then cops in Chicago facing the same group will be more likely to apply force sooner, rather than later to prevent re-occurrences...
One thing to keep in mind that 99.9% of the time, LEOs will apply overwhelming force sooner at the outset of a potential riot.. This prevents things from escalating to the point where "going Delta" (application of Deadly Force) is required..
So, while one will see cops applying non-lethal force aggressively when there doesn't seem to be a need for it, that call is made to prevent the protesters from being able to escalate things where protesters (and likely cops) will end up dead.
Of course, these are general guidelines. Every situation is unique, but the responses to them are borne from decades of experience...
As much as you might like to see it, you won't see cops throwing down their batons, stripping their uniforms and joining the Oowzers... :D
Michale.....
Don't be so sure of that. I personally know several police officers here who sympathize (though they might not show it publicly).
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2063351/Retired-police-chief-arrested-uniform-Occupy-Wall-Street-demo-branding-fellow-officers-obnoxious-arrogant-ignorant.html
Many police here in Ohio sympathize with OWS because of our our esteemed governor, former Wall Street shill: John Kasich (formerly of Lehman Brothers, remember the firm that was the first domino?).
They do their job but I think there's more support than you think from the police.
-David
I personally know several police officers here who sympathize (though they might not show it publicly).
There's a reason for that. :D
My experience with protesters is somewhat dated.. I "fondly" remember Dykes On Bikes during the MX Missile protests at Vandenberg AFB during the 80s... :D
But, by and large, I think you'll find that most LEOs agree with my assessment..
Sure, there is sympathy for the message.. As I said... You probably won't find ANYONE who disagrees with the message...
But I also believe you won't find ANYONE who agrees with how the Oowzers are presenting the message...
In short, it's not what they say, it's how they are saying it...
Michale.....
David,
What did these students do that merited being pepper sprayed?
This appears to be an improper application of use of force. I say "appears" because we don't know what happened prior to the incident. W/O context it's hard to make an accurate judgement...
But, taking the video at it's face value, this does seem to be an overly-aggressive action.
What did these protesters do that merited getting billy clubbed?
These protesters weren't "clubbed".. They were "jabbed".. Standard riot control procedure when moving an unruly crowd.
Jab, Step, Jab, Step.
Nothing out of the ordinary or unwarranted there.
Now, it's your turn..
A YouTube video on Monday purportedly from Anonymous published the home address, the home telephone number, the cellphone number and the email address of one of the policeman who allegedly used the pepper spray on protestors.
http://news.yahoo.com/anonymous-targets-pepper-spraying-policeman-195228075.html
You might say, "the asshole deserves to be harassed" and that statement would have some merit.
But, assuming he has a family, a wife, children.... Do THEY deserve to be terrified by protesters "taking out their anger" on them???
That's not "what democracy looks like"...
It's what terrorism looks like...
Michale.....
David,
What did these students do that merited being pepper sprayed?
According to one of the protesters, they encircled the cops and refused to let them leave...
" Well we were protesting together and the riot cops came at us and we linked arms and sat down peacefully to protest their presence on our campus. And then at one point they were – we had encircled them and they were trying to leave and they were trying to clear a path. And so we sat down, linked arms and said that if they wanted to clear the path they would have to go through us. But we were on the ground, you know, heads down and all I could see was people telling me to cover my head, protect myself and put my head down. And the next thing I know we were pepper-sprayed"
-Protester
Michale....
Ooops...
That was 004 :D
Michale.....
005