Merry Politically-Correct-mas?
[ Posted Monday, December 26th, 2011 – 17:29 UTC ]
[Program Note: We're going to have a week of frivolity here at CW.com this week. Partly, this is so I can work on other projects, and partly it's because nobody's in the mood for politics this time of year anyway (Iowans aside...). To start us off, here's a blast from the past, a cartoon from December of 2007. Hope everyone had a great... um... celebration day! Yeah, that's it....
About the Cartoonist | Reprint Policy
I saids it before and I'll says it again..
In the here and now, Political Correctness has supplanted Common Sense-ness...
Michale
328
i'd say political correctness is a pretense of true consideration. We say something bland and ostensibly inoffensive as a cheap shortcut to actually getting to know someone. I don't know that willful ignorance of cultural sensitivities is an answer either. If we permitted ourselves the time, perhaps we'd find out what people are about before opening our big mouths... But how many of us do?
[1],[2]
Any other assinine, liberal, pre-packaged statements you guys want to make about trying to change society by changing the language?
Really, both of you sound like every fat, drunk redneck I've had to put up with for years.
I'm tired of it. I'm going to go to a site where one of the products of your crocodile protestations is beginning her attempts to change the world for the better.
Really, both of you sound like every fat, drunk redneck I've had to put up with for years.
Hay!! I resent that remark!!
I am not drunk!!! Well, yet .... :D
"I'm looking for my daughter."
"Drunk blonde??"
"Well, she isn't always.... blonde"
-TWO AND A HALF MEN
:D
I gotta agree with NYpoet...
Political Correctness is just a way that snobby elitists can pretend they are compassionate. It saves them the trouble of actually LEARNING something about people..
Biggest and most moronic PC label ever???
"African American"....
I literally sigh and shake my head sadly when I hear the term..
You want to see a *REAL* "African American"???
http://tinyurl.com/yoqrcn
Michale
329
So Michale,
Just what DO you call the general class of people whose ancestry was West African before being forcibly removed to work in the Western Hemisphere 200+ years ago?
You can't expect to use the term negro. Firstly, many of the people involved consider it a term of degradation. Secondly, many people because of their accents pronounce the word nigra ... not something you would encourage, I would hope.
Many white southerners that I know refuse to use the term black because it has political connotations they don't like.
So, what is it?
Just what DO you call the general class of people whose ancestry was West African before being forcibly removed to work in the Western Hemisphere 200+ years ago?
If you go back far enough, **EVERYONE'S** ancestry is African...
So, what is it?
Am I allowed to call myself an Irish English American, just because I don't like the word "caucasian"???
Come to think of it, "caucasian" is VERY offensive to me because it sounds like a chinese dick...
So, am I allowed to change the word and the meaning to a nationalistic bent, just because I don't like it??
Call a spade a spade, fer christ's sake! And that is not racist in the least despite what some may think...
I don't know the answer, but I do know that this "african american" crap ain't it...
You can't take a region or a nation and make it a race...
It's not allowed...
Michale
330
Michale,
you didn't answer the question. How do YOU refer to descendants of slaves brought over from Africa?
DF,
In the history of the world, it wasn't only Black people that were slaves...
How do we refer to the descendents of THOSE slaves???
If they are white, they are Caucasian..
African American is NOT a race... It's a nationalistic reference...
If the current terminology isn't to people's liking, then create a new word that reflects race and not nation/region...
Like I point out above, Charlize Theron is a true "African American"... And she is as far from Black or Negro as a person can be..
Michale
331
For the record, Theresa Heinz-Kerry is ALSO an "African American"...
But Charlize Theron is just so much hotter... :D
Michale
332
Personally, I don't understand how anyone can have a problem with Black... I don't have a problem with "White"... I don't know any caucasian person who DOES have a problem with "White"...
Do we revamp the entire lexography of race, just because someone might have a problem with "White"??
Reminds me of the PC crap a while back where people had a problem with computer terminology of "Master" and "Slave" as it pertained to Hard Drives...
Geeesh.....
Michale
333
well, to be honest, the only people I know of who have a problem with Black (as pertains to descendants of sub-saharan africa) are white and racist.
I don't know anyone but you who is particularly upset about AfricanAmerican. But then I'm sure you know plenty.
I see that since you STILL have not answered the question, that this must be another war on christmas thing for you.
Ok. No problem.
PS:
I've been in computers at least as long as you, and I've NEVER heard of any crap about Master/Slave output ports. But then, since I didn't use the RS232 port much (I used the IEEE-498, mostly) maybe that's why.
Another war on christmas, I guess.
well, to be honest, the only people I know of who have a problem with Black (as pertains to descendants of sub-saharan africa) are white and racist.
OK.. So we agree that the designation for race should be "Black"...
I see that since you STILL have not answered the question, that this must be another war on christmas thing for you.
"Call a spade a spade, fer christ's sake! And that is not racist in the least despite what some may think..."
"I don't know the answer, but I do know that this "african american" crap ain't it..."
"If the current terminology isn't to people's liking, then create a new word that reflects race and not nation/region... "
How many times would you like me to answer it??
I also note that you avoided in addressing the points that I made...
The simple fact is, "african american" is NOT a race...
True or False??
"african american" is a national/geographic identification.
True or False??
Black people were not the only slaves in the history of the world.
True or False??
Michale
334
This argument's been going on a lot longer than anyone realizes. Teddy Roosevelt (I believe, too lazy to look it up, sorry) gave a speech about "hyphenated-Americans" being odious. At the time, he was talking mostly about "Irish-Americans" or "Italian-Americans" or other such constructions. His point was we are all American-Americans, basically.
The problem with "African-American" (used to, essentially, describe race) is that while it works in most cases, when it doesn't work it becomes ridiculous. For instance: what do you call the child of a diplomat from Liberia living here, who is not a citizen? African? What do you call someone who is proud of their Haitian ethnicity who is an American citizen now, with dark skin? African-American doesn't work, because of the ethnic baggage of the term, which is in this example not what the person self-identifies with. Likewise, what do you call a white person from South Africa who moves here? African-American would, technically, be correct, but it defeats the purpose of the euphemism.
Nevertheless, having said all of that, I believe it's the right of any group of people to decide for themselves what they're allowed to be called. For instance, "midget" is no longer considered polite usage, because "little people" has eclipsed it. The group is stating "don't call us X, because we find it offensive." That is different than PC-ism, which I define as people from outside the group redefining the term for their own supposedly-noble purposes.
My eyesight is bad. I am myopic. I wear glasses. I'd even call it a mild handicap. But I never once (back in the 80s) considered saying I was "visually-challenged" because it was just downright stupid. With my glasses on, I see just as good as anyone else. It's not that much of a "challenge" to put my glasses on in the morning...
Anyway, it's a touchy subject, that's for sure. Go dig up that Teddy Roosevelt speech -- the same things were being said (about different groups, but the thought is the same) 100 years ago.
-CW
Just tossin' this out there...
I once had a relative who took exception with my pronounciation of SCSI ("scuzzy"), who insisted it should be pronounced as letters ("ess-cee-ess-eye"). Never heard anyone get upset at "master/slave". Or, for that matter, the inherent sexism (?) in "motherboard/daughterboard".
No point, really, just tossin' it out there...
-CW
Michale[13]
OK.. So we agree that the designation for race should be "Black"...
No you (*&DR)(*&*(&. NOTHING that I wrote indicated what I believed or what I thought ... only what I know of people who've thought about this. And I resent a great deal your calm ascertion that I'm just like you because you assume that I talk like you.
Personally, I prefer African American for the most part, occasionally black when it fits the context of where I am and with whom I speak. Primarily, because I don't know more than one or two people who are BLACK, and THEY are NOT American. I know lots of mohagany, chocolate, latte, and so forth, but only one or two BLACK.
Nevertheless, having said all of that, I believe it's the right of any group of people to decide for themselves what they're allowed to be called. For instance, "midget" is no longer considered polite usage, because "little people" has eclipsed it. The group is stating "don't call us X, because we find it offensive." That is different than PC-ism, which I define as people from outside the group redefining the term for their own supposedly-noble purposes.
The only problem I have with that is
A> The term defies logic, as you illustrate
and
2> what about the people of that race who don't like the term??
Mature Trek fans want to be called "Trekkers"... But the common terminology is "Trekkies"...
Which is apropos of absolutely nothing. :D
I think it's just ridiculous to use national/geographic terms to describe race...
For all the reasons you list and so many more..
Never heard anyone get upset at "master/slave". Or, for that matter, the inherent sexism (?) in "motherboard/daughterboard".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_%28technology%29
Michale
335
DF,
And I resent a great deal your calm ascertion that I'm just like you because you assume that I talk like you.
Trust me, DF... I would never assume you are like me..
Yer cranky...
I am a cup is half full kinda guy... :D
All I am saying is it is utterly ridiculous and defies common sense to base the name of a race on nationalistic/geographic specifics..
I prefer more logic in my lexicography..
Michale
336
OK, I'll toss in my nickle's worth of opinion on the subject. My first encounter with political correctness was back in the early 1970's at the University of British Columbia. I despised a lot of it, but easily conceded their points with terms like "retarded" and similar slurs used for people dealing with disabilities that were not their fault. Whatever terms they preferred to be called were fine with me, and I could readily sympathize with their hatred of certain words and terms. Pathetically, what drives me around the bend has been the stupidity of things like replacing the perfectly acceptable (and clear) fishermen and fisherwomen; ie. people who fish for a living, with fisher. I'm sorry, a fisher is a member of the weasel family!!! And what nitwit came up with calling actors and actresses (again, perfectly clear English) with a generic call everyone actors. I have/had enough trouble with Glen Close, Michael Learned etc. without actress being relegated to the scrap heap. In what world is the word actress demeaning? Sheesh. I'll stop now, but I could go on and on. DerFarm, you think you're cranky? :D
(PS-I'm slightly hurt that more regulars haven't given me a rough clue to their ages yet...c'mon folks.)
Kevin,
I'm sorry, a fisher is a member of the weasel family!!!
I did not know that!! :D
Learn Something New Today..... CHECK
:D
And what nitwit came up with calling actors and actresses (again, perfectly clear English) with a generic call everyone actors. I have/had enough trouble with Glen Close, Michael Learned etc. without actress being relegated to the scrap heap.
I actually find this somewhat refreshing...
Much like, in the Trek/Galactica/SciFi universe, everyone is referred to as "sir". Unless of course, yer like Janeway and specifically request the "Ma'am" designation :D
It just simplifies everything and gets rid of the sexist baggage...
Michale
337
[Note: no column today, sorry]
Michale -
Isn't the "sir" thing from the US Navy protocol? I think they did it in either the first or second ST movie to make a point that the Federation was run with military traditions (but I could be wrong), and then it kind of caught on with other sci-fi stuff.
-CW
Isn't the "sir" thing from the US Navy protocol?
I don't think any US military uses the "sir" designation for all officers. I could be wrong...
I think they did it in either the first or second ST movie to make a point that the Federation was run with military traditions (but I could be wrong), and then it kind of caught on with other sci-fi stuff.
I think it was ST II, WRATH OF KAHN that started it. When Saavik was in command during the KOBYASHI MARU, I think Sulu referred to her as "sir"...
Michale
338
Call a female officer in the Marines "Sir" and be prepared to get the skin off your ass stuffed down your throat. It's "ma'am" ... or in the case of a scared s***less recruit: "ma'am, sir"
and God alone can help you if you call a sergeant sir.
I once had a relative who took exception with my pronounciation of SCSI ("scuzzy"), who insisted it should be pronounced as letters ("ess-cee-ess-eye"). Never heard anyone get upset at "master/slave".
I've never heard anyone say "S ... C ... S ... I". At least not anyone who we didn't mock for their ignorance.
Nor have I ever heard of anyone being upset over "master/slave".
Where are all the liberals who are supposedly so "politically correct"?
The funny thing is I've never really met any in person. And I know a lot of liberals.
Could it be possible that some pundits just enjoy whining about how persecuted they are? :)
-David
"War on the Trash 80"
One reference to an LA city memo? c'mon. Not even Savage would go off on that.
I've checked some boards, and no one on them has ever heard of any type of controversy. Of course the average age of these guys is about 13 ... damn smartass punks.
However, http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/master.asp>these guys report that it actually happened. In LA. Not anywhere else. And not since.
Like I said: "War on the Trash 80"
sorry,
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/master.asp
whatever ...
Really, Michale, you need to get out and around on the web. There's no telling what kind of righteous indignation you can get involved in:
Here is a list containing many that I'd never heard of.
Here is the part where you can get started on your moral outrage before anyone else! Be the first on your block to be a certifiable ...
From the same site is the story of camel toads.
We didn't have this when I was boy.
I actually posted the Wiki Link on the Master/Slave controversy a few posts up..
It's funny.. Ya'all claim that something is non-existent and then when proof is shown you are wrong, you come back with "well it wasn't that wide spread"...
Who gives a flying frak how "wide spread" it was..
It happened, it was politically correct BS and it was frakin' ridiculous... Agreed???
Michale
339
Iddn't it interesting..
Anything that casts the Left in a bad light (Oowzers(rhymes with 'lusers'), PC BS, etc etc) is always "isolated incidents" or "not widespread...
But anything that casts the Right in a bad light (Tea Party, "terrorists", racism etc etc) is always part and parcel to the Right as a whole..
How exactly does such a mindset work???
Michale
340
Riddle me this, Michale: when is a conspiracy not a conspiracy? When it involves fewer people than the number investigating it.
When is it obvious that Right has been called out for deception on outrage? When they start getting even more outraged by supposed blanket accusations that actually never happen.
"isolated incidents"
Notice the ***S*** there at the end? You quoted one incident, from one timeframe, a long time ago and I'm supposed to take you seriously?
Get real, Michale. I've heard better and more complete outrage arguments from a 15 y/o that actually had to read and report on Anna Karenina. His report claimed that Count Vronsky had been paralyzed by a tragic riding accident, and Anna left him because of it. He got a D-. The D for thinking that a movie adaptation could possibly be a substitute for reading the book. The - because he didn't even realize that Christopher Reeve was injured about 20 years after the film was made. He didn't get an F because the teacher didn't believe in F's.
Your master/slave outrage? D-
But you can now go off on liberal teachers and grade inflation.
It happened, it was politically correct BS and it was frakin' ridiculous...
Agreed???
Anything that casts the Left in a bad light (Oowzers(rhymes with 'lusers'), PC BS, etc etc) is always "isolated incidents" or "not widespread...
But anything that casts the Right in a bad light (Tea Party, "terrorists", racism etc etc) is always part and parcel to the Right as a whole..
Michale
341
Let's review my original statement..
Reminds me of the PC crap a while back where people had a problem with computer terminology of "Master" and "Slave" as it pertained to Hard Drives...
Now let's examine the facts.
1. Was it "a while back"??
Yes, 2003 could be logically construed as being "a while back".
2. Was the Master/Slave controversy "PC Crap"???
Yes it was completely and undeniably "Politically Correct" crap...
3. Did "people" have a problem with the Master/Slave designation??
Since it was the official position of Los Angeles County and the county government is made up of... wait for it... wait for it.... wait for it.... ..people, then yes. "People" had a problem with the Master/Slave designation...
Now, what about my original statement do you find to be inaccurate???
Fact is, nothing was inaccurate about my original statement.
You just felt that the "Left" was under attack and had to respond with mounds and mounds of non-sequitor BS...
That about sums it up... :D
Michale
342
I think the phrase that best suits things here is:
"Me thinks thou doth protests TOO much"
:D
Michale
343
The problem with "African-American" (used to, essentially, describe race) is that while it works in most cases, when it doesn't work it becomes ridiculous. For instance: what do you call the child of a diplomat from Liberia living here, who is not a citizen? African? What do you call someone who is proud of their Haitian ethnicity who is an American citizen now, with dark skin? African-American doesn't work, because of the ethnic baggage of the term, which is in this example not what the person self-identifies with. Likewise, what do you call a white person from South Africa who moves here? African-American would, technically, be correct, but it defeats the purpose of the euphemism.
Just occurred to me..
My lovely wife was born in Madrid, Spain..
Does that mean her RACE is "Spanish American"??
Of course not. That would be utterly and completely ridiculous...
We met over on Okinawa, Japan and conceived our first child there.
Does that mean my oldest son's RACE is Okinawan-American???
That would be even MORE utterly and completely ridiculous...
Yet "African-American" is perfectly all right...
It's completely and utterly illogical to assign nationalistic attributes to race...
Michale
344
Speaking of language and the way it normally changes and sometimes abnormally changes, I was researching for a planned blog on the Ron Paul boom/boomlet and ran across this on Forbes.
Talking about language and semantic changes fascinates me, and the above case highlights a particularly delightful conundrum: can you concieve of what you do not have the language to describe?
Levi-Straus (The Raw and the Cooked) seems to think not. Immannual Kant spent a lifetime attempting to prove that you could (not specifically he actually wanted to be able to argue the existance of unknowns using pure logic. It devolves into a very similar, if not exact problem).
I thought the argument of the plaintiff, Mr. Goolsby was a possible example of trying to do just that. Unfortunately, the US Government apprantly doesn't believe in Kant.
Kevin,
(PS-I'm slightly hurt that more regulars haven't given me a rough clue to their ages yet...c'mon folks.)
Well, I gave you a clue that was so big I might just as well have opened up and told you my entire life story and precisely when it all began!
Just ask Michale ...
Well, I gave you a clue that was so big I might just as well have opened up and told you my entire life story and precisely when it all began!
Just ask Michale ...
Was that when you said how uncanny that was???
Am I to assume that we are both Libras?? :D
Michale
345
I think on going attempts to control language is common among all groups left, right, center and sideways. I'm not sure changing dog pound to animal shelter and garbage man to Sanitation Engineer is some liberal plot. More than likely good marketing by those involved. Even if the movement of inclusive language does come from the left, does that automatically make it a bad thing?
My lovely wife was born in Madrid, Spain..
Does that mean her RACE is "Spanish American"??
Depends. Were her parents native to Spain? I think that is generally considered an important component.
To some degree it is political correctness but I also think that to some degree it's just shorting of language for those who find the distinction important whether in a positive or negative light. Much quicker and rolls off the tongue better to say Spanish American than American who has Spanish heritage...
BashiBazouk -
A comment you may have missed...
:-)
-CW
Michale,
Was that when you said how uncanny that was???
Yes, but, I'm not a Libra - let's just say I have you beat by a few days.
Be nice to your elders!
Bashi,
Depends. Were her parents native to Spain? I think that is generally considered an important component.
Even if her parents WERE native to Spain (they're not. She's a military brat) it still wouldn't make her *RACE* "Spanish American"...
Her nationality might be "Spanish American" but her *RACE* has absolutely NOTHING to do with where she was born..
To some degree it is political correctness but I also think that to some degree it's just shorting of language for those who find the distinction important whether in a positive or negative light. Much quicker and rolls off the tongue better to say Spanish American than American who has Spanish heritage...
I kinda liked "Afro-American".... That rolls off the tongue real well... :D
Liz,
Ahhhhh... :D
In 1992, I ran into a lady where I lived in Salem Oregon.. She was born on the exact same day in 1962 as I was and in the exact same hospital. Howz THAT for coinky-dink?? :D
Michale.....
346
I saw it. The Bashi~Bazouk were the irregular soldiers of the Ottoman army. As such, using Bashi Bazouk as an insult means calling them an undisciplined bandit.
Another Libra here. Hmm...must be a plot. What? Shhh...nothing to see here.
Ya'all claim that something is non-existent and then when proof is shown you are wrong, you come back with "well it wasn't that wide spread".
The issue is that the outrage is disproportionate to the incident. This is how the media distorts reality.
It's why people across the country think there's some kind of coordinated "war" on Christmas. Every year around Christmas, talk radio takes a couple isolated incidents and rants about them for months to turn them into a "war".
It's how FoxNews takes two New Black Panthers in Philadelphia and builds it into a voter fraud conspiracy.
It's why my mom (and likely countless others) think that all crime in America is committed by black people (because the media tends to show more black crime even though the majority of crimes are committed by whites).
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/table-43
I'm guessing this is what happened with the Master/Slave story in LA County.
Some pundit got a hold of it and next thing you know, it's the national outrage du jour.
Liberals are trying to take away your freedom!
(Meanwhile, amidst all the idiocy, Wall Street is working behind the scenes with your congressmen to rob America blind.)
Whatever terms they preferred to be called were fine with me, and I could readily sympathize with their hatred of certain words and terms.
That's kind of always been how I've felt. What's the harm in letting people define themselves?
-David
BTW- This FBI site is great for crime statistics. Lots of interesting data sets.
Even if her parents WERE native to Spain (they're not. She's a military brat) it still wouldn't make her *RACE* "Spanish American"...
But it would make her heritage Spanish. Which is commonly what people are talking about when using these terms. Another example are Indians (from India). Technically they are Asians as India is part of that continent but genetically they are separate from both Orientals and Caucasians. Much closer to arabs or persians but still not that close. Race from a scientific view is really complex and getting more so with genetic sequencing...
Michale,
You really must stop putting your multiply replies in one post.
By the way, I'm confused ... I hear you're paid up for 400 comments but, you're only at 346 and you're posting multiple replies in single comments???
What is going on?
The issue is that the outrage is disproportionate to the incident. This is how the media distorts reality.
What "outrage"???
I merely commented that it had occurred and that it was a perfect example of Political Correctness run amok...
As I am sure you would agree with me.. :D
That's kind of always been how I've felt. What's the harm in letting people define themselves?
I don't have a problem with it either. As long as they define themselves based on logic and reality..
Charlize Theron is an African American. THAT is logic. THAT is reality..
Calling a black person an "African American" based on some long past ancestral link is NOT logic. Is NOT reality..
As I said, if we go back far enough, ALL of us are "African Americans"...
Where's the logic?? Where's the reality??
Michale
347
Bashi,
But it would make her heritage Spanish. Which is commonly what people are talking about when using these terms. Another example are Indians (from India). Technically they are Asians as India is part of that continent but genetically they are separate from both Orientals and Caucasians. Much closer to arabs or persians but still not that close. Race from a scientific view is really complex and getting more so with genetic sequencing...
Fine. Heritage works for me as well..
But it's not Race..
For example.. It's common knowledge that President Obama was born in Kenya. That makes him an "African American." :D Just kidding, couldn't resist. :D
If two black people have a kid in Japan, does that make the kid Oriental or Asian?? Of course not.
Where a person is born has absolutely NOTHING to do with their racial designation.
Can we agree on that??
Negro used to be fine with Black people. United Negro College Fund.
Colored used to be fine with Black people. National Association for the Advancement Of Colored People...
Apparently, those terms still ARE ok as their names have not been changed...
All I am saying, all I have ever said is that it is stoopid and moronic to use a geographical/nationalistic designations as a racial designation..
Over all my point has been that it is simply one example in a long LONG list of examples of how Political Correctness is stoopid, moronic and defies all logic, reality and common sense..
Michale
348
Liz,
You really must stop putting your multiply replies in one post.
Yea, sorry about that. :D I got lazy. Won't happen again.. :D
By the way, I'm confused ... I hear you're paid up for 400 comments but, you're only at 346 and you're posting multiple replies in single comments???
What is going on?
It was easier for me to donate to CW on a weekly basis, every Friday...
It just got to the point where my donations outpaced my comments..
My donations will match 500 comments.. I just don't know if my comments will match my donations.. :D
Hopefully CW can help me out with a good juicy commentary. Maybe something on Iran?? Or about Bush 2 as the finest American President since George Washington.. :D
Michale
349
Michale,
Well, that clears it up. My donation will match your comments - at the going rate of 50 cents per comment - and your comments will total 500. :)
We are going right through New Year's Day, right?
Maybe CW could give us a quick update and his take on how the clown show known as the Republican race for the White House is shaking out so far.
Not that any of this matters since we all know that Obama/Biden/Geithner will begin their second term in office after all is said and done.
Michale,
I know you don't really believe that GW Bush was a fine president, let alone the finest since Washington.
But, what I'd like to know is how long do you think it will be before Cheney, Rumsfeld et al. are properly held to account for their crimes against the constitution?
Liz,
We are going right through New Year's Day, right?
That's my understanding...
Not that any of this matters since we all know that Obama/Biden/Geithner will begin their second term in office after all is said and done.
That's definitely more possible now that it was a month or two ago..
But the odds are still against it..
Obama has to keep his base happy and win back a LOT of Independents/NPAs...
A lot can happen in a year, but I don't see how Obama can do it. Anything that pleases his base will piss off the Independents/NPAs.. Anything that is good with the Independents/NPAs will cause his base to scream bloody murder...
Michale
350
I know you don't really believe that GW Bush was a fine president, let alone the finest since Washington.
Bush is definitely not the finest since Washington. But he IS in the top five....
But, what I'd like to know is how long do you think it will be before Cheney, Rumsfeld et al. are properly held to account for their crimes against the constitution?
Not going to happen for so many different reasons, not the LEAST of which is the fact that, if one prosecuted Cheney and Rumsfeld et al, one would have to ALSO prosecute many in the Obama administration up to and including Obama himself..
To answer more specifically, I would have to know exactly what you think Cheney and Rumsfeld could be charged with..
Michale
351
Maybe CW could give us a quick update and his take on how the clown show known as the Republican race for the White House is shaking out so far.
I find it funny (in a nice sort of way) how ya'all (you and David, among others) will knock the GOP primary...
I have to remind ya'all about the 2008 Dem Primary...
THAT made the current GOP primary seem like a nice family fun ho-down by comparison... :D
Michale...
352
DF[3/5],
Any other assinine, liberal, pre-packaged statements you guys want to make about trying to change society by changing the language?
only all the time, except for the pre-packaged part. language and culture in a society are always closely linked. the words we use reflect our values, and when they don't we as a society tend to feel the need to explore other options. in the past 20 years, political correct terminology developed as an exploration into making our language better reflect our values. the trouble, as CW [14] eloquently explained, is that not every linguistic exploration successfully finds its target, and we're left with a gap between what we want to express and the language available to express it.
politically correct terminology, while well-intentioned, generally missed its mark. whoever it was that proscribed those changes in language wasn't sensitive to the fact that our social values are still largely in flux. further, as a nation we tend not to like lefties to tell us what to do - authoritarianism in our culture is more of a right-wing trait, so when it comes from the left it doesn't usually jibe. we're more comfortable being told what to do or say when it's something with which we have a history, even if it's an unpleasant one. the left tends to be more successful by generating more options and encouraging us to explore them on our own.
Really, both of you sound like every fat, drunk redneck I've had to put up with for years.
speaking as a relatively thin, mostly sober, center-left yankee elitist snob, i think the above statement is a perfect demonstration of my other point; namely, it's better to get to know someone before allowing one's sensibilities to slap a label on them - if ever. regarding michale's [4] assertion that african-american is a "moronic" term, i would say it's useful to have as an option, just silly to insist on its use completely supplanting "black" in conversation. the same goes for "whatever-challenged" and other terms to describe different subgroups. it works as one of many options, but not when any authority is trying to force a change in what's accepted or appropriate.
Just what DO you call the general class of people whose ancestry was West African before being forcibly removed to work in the Western Hemisphere 200+ years ago?
when i get to know someone, i find out what they're comfortable with, then use my judgment. if i don't know someone, or am commenting online, it depends completely upon the context and the company. generally, the more formal the communication is, the longer and more specific the term i use. "people some of whose ancestors were forcibly brought to the americas as slaves," doesn't have much of a ring to it.
kevin[19],
(PS-I'm slightly hurt that more regulars haven't given me a rough clue to their ages yet...c'mon folks.)
i'm 36.
I merely commented that it had occurred and that it was a perfect example of Political Correctness run amok.
"Run amok". That outrage.
All I am saying, all I have ever said is that it is stoopid and moronic to use a geographical/nationalistic designations as a racial designation.
So you're ok with letting people define themselves as long as they define themselves the way you want them to?
whoever it was that proscribed those changes in language wasn't sensitive to the fact that our social values are still largely in flux.
@nypoet
One of the most fascinating classes I ever had the pleasure of taking was a class called Historical Linguistics. Obviously, language changes, but at the time the idea that the changes might obey certain rules was new. Trask's "Historical Linguistics" is a good read if you're interested.
David,
The idea that the Master/Slave identification within the IDE system of hard drives would be offensive IS PCisms run amok...
I am not outraged by it. More amused than anything else...
So you're ok with letting people define themselves as long as they define themselves the way you want them to?
No..
I am OK with letting people define themselves as long as such definitions have SOME semblance of logic and are in some tenuous way, connected with reality...
Charlize Theron is an African American.
t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTrQkv-2pKbZg3eysxaBVn00PCp7OQgok5AU2y2uBubTRhdzqou9eME6bcNRA (warning, somewhat explicit)
Al Sharpton is an African American.
media.philly.com/images/Al2.jpg
Now, you look at those and just TRY to convince that BOTH of those people are "African Americans".
African American is a geographical/nationalistic designation.
It is NOT a racial designation in any way, shape or form...
Michale
357
Lemme ask ya'all something...
Let's say ya'all were in a group and one person was asked to do something.. That person replied, "Do I look black to you!?"...
What would be your gut reaction to that?
And, if different, what would be your thought out reaction to that..
This actually happened by the way, in my USAF years..
Am curious to see if the reactions in the here and now are different than the actions back then...
Michale
358
I am OK with letting people define themselves as long as such definitions have SOME semblance of logic and are in some tenuous way, connected with reality...
if we go by that standard, most of the language we use would be thrown out for its logical incoherence, especially the idioms. people whose ancestry is historically european circa the 15th century b.c.e. aren't white at all - the coloring tends to range between pink and beige. likewise, people whose ancestry is mostly from sub-saharan africa circa the 15th century b.c.e. aren't really black; they range from very dark brown to very light brown, but never approach any actual shade of black.
Joshua,
I am not referring to the words we use now that can be traced back hundreds of years... Those words and descriptions have a certain "logic" to them simply based on their longevity...
I am talking about inventing words or terms that have no basis in logic...
African American is a PERFECT example of an invented term that has absolutely NO basis in logic...
It was political correctness term chosen to appease a minority.
While researching the entomology of the word "Caucasian", I came across this gem...
The United States National Library of Medicine has used the term "Caucasian" as a race in the past, but has discontinued its usage in favor of the term "European".
This is also utterly moronic and stoopid for all the previously stated reasons..
European is a nationalistic/geographical designation, NOT a racial designation..
Of course, the term Asian totally throws my argument totally into the crapper.. :D
I am not a professional linguist, nor do I have the time to fully explore the entomology of the racial designations. But if I were so inclined, I would HOPE I could come up with something a little more logical than "african american"..
Michale
359
michale,
i think you meant "etymology." entomology is the study of insects.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entomology
the etymology of the term african-american doesn't seem to me any more or less arbitrary than most other racial categories. what i think you're objecting to is that some media or interest groups insist on it as the "appropriate" term. if i'm wrong about that, let me know.
joshua
Joshua,
Yes, I stand corrected.. Etymology...
Although entomology is also fun... :D
the etymology of the term african-american doesn't seem to me any more or less arbitrary than most other racial categories.
For example...???
I am not being facetious or a smart ass here.. I am curious as to the etymology of "caucasian" and how that compares to "African American"...
Michale
360
I am not outraged by it. More amused than anything else.
Me too.
I also have no problem if Charlize Theron wants to be called African-American. Or Al Sharpton. Or if they'd prefer to be called "Black".
Last time I checked, the box on the U.S. Census form trusts you to define your own race as you see fit.
Why are you insisting on using some Politically Correct term?
Are you some kind of freedom-hating Communist? :)
-David
p.s. http://www.census.gov/dmd/www/pdf/d61a.pdf
Michale [53] -
"family fun ho-down"?? I think you dropped an "e" in there. Heh. Couldn't resist.
nypoet22 [54] -
The biggest problem with PC-ism, other than the leftie-authoritarianism you correctly identify, is that they just "didn't get it" in terms of snappiness. People don't, as a rule, adopt longer and more cumbersome terms without resistance. Hence "blind" is easier to say than "visually-challenged".
My funniest anecdote was from (I believe) Sacramento in the 1980s. Feminists complained about the label "manholes" for those big iron Frisbees lodged in the streets. So the city gummint spent a lot of time and money coming up with a less-offensive term. They came up with (you can't make this stuff up) the acronym (I forgot what it stood for, I believe it began with "maintanence access") M.A.N.-holes. Like I said, you can't make this stuff up.
I liked "Afro-Americans" better than "African-Americans" but then I don't really have a vote. I call people what they want to be called, and live and learn. Some people object to "Hispanic" out here ("I'm not from Spain!") so I've learned to use "Latino." Whatever, either way is fine with me.
akadjian [55] -
That sounds like an interesting book, and an interesting course. Language shifts and word roots fascinate me, personally. Especially since I've been reading so much from the 1700s and 1800s lately. "Partizan" used to be correct spelling, for instance. And don't even get me started on what a pain it was when printers used that "f" character for "s"....
Michale [57] -
I too remember folks using such phrases as "mighty white of you" -- but thankfully, those days are (mostly) gone.
I hear your point about geography, but if you really want to get technical, we're ALL one race. Biologically, different "races" can't usually interbreed. Dogs, from Chihuahuas to Irish Wolfhounds, are all (I belive, I'm doing this from memory) the same "race". So while it is common to differentiate humans as Negroid, Caucasoid, and Oriental as different "races" they really aren't. Just my $0.02.
The most amusing (linguistic) error was the Nazi's use of "Aryan" when they basically meant "Scandinavian-looking". I believe the actual Aryans were from somewhere in India, not at all what they were trying to say.
But at some point, a lot of these words come from geography. Caucasian - Caucasus Mountains region. Oriental - from "the East". Etc.
My favorite is how the... um... Native Americans Who Live Up North (or whatever the PC term is) used to be spelled -- "Esquimeaux." Obviously French influence there. Religions' names in English have changed spellings too, used to be "Hindoo" and "Mohammaden" and whatnot.
The history of "African-American" is that whatever the "polite, correct" term has been, over time, has devolved into a slur. Negro devolved into... well, we can all figure that one out. Then "Colored" was next. When that became a slur, "black" came into favor. In the 70s, it was briefly "Afro-American" and then finally "African American." Along the way, one other was considered (to be "more inclusive" of "other than Africans") -- "people of color", but it never really caught on.
I still think "black" is mostly acceptible to just about everyone.
I've always thought it is MUCH more about the tone of voice than what particular word is being used. But then what do I know?
-CW
LizM -
Yeah, I'm kind of taking the week off, which isn't adding to the comment count. I've said before how bad I am at this whole begging-for-money thing!
But I will have a fun and funny column tomorrow, promise!
As for the clown show, the most hilarious act in the center ring is Lil' Newtie complaining about (snerk, snerk) how mean and nasty the campaign is (guffaw!!). I mean, Newt pretty much invented this sort of thing back in the 90s -- he's the one who urged Republicans to use as NASTY language as possible. And now he's Mister High Road? Give me a freakin' break, Newt! Man, I hope I don't run out of popcorn before Jan. 3!!!
Heh.
-CW
I don't know of any of my ancestors who lived in the Caucasus. I don't much care whether someone calls me Caucasian, or just about anything else for that matter, but it has always seemed bizarre to me.
I'm not a Libra.
Biologically, different "races" can't usually interbreed.
Really? I thought it was for populations that can interbreed but have done so little enough for long enough that you can distinguish them, or something like that.
According to Wikipedia, "In 1990, the city of Sacramento, California officially renamed all its manholes to "maintenance holes" out of concern for gender equality."
Meh, why not call them maintenance holes or whatever?
Last time I checked, the box on the U.S. Census form trusts you to define your own race as you see fit.
I would like to be referred to as a Vulcan with all the perks and responsibilities of a citizen of the United Federation of Planets...
Sounds pretty silly, doesn't it??
Why are you insisting on using some Politically Correct term?
Nice try... I don't insist on using some Politically Correct term..
I insist on using terms that are consistent with logic and reality.
Whether Charlize Theron *wants* to be called an African American is irrelevant.
The fact is, she *IS* an African American.
Al Sharpton is NOT an African American.
Al Sharpton is a Black man.
This is the reality..
Michale
358
CW,
"family fun ho-down"?? I think you dropped an "e" in there. Heh. Couldn't resist.
I did.. How silly of me.. :D
I don't really mind the term "African American" if Black people want to use it to describe their heritage..
Let me put it another way. You hear "Caucasian" you should think of a white person..
You hear "African American" what should you think of???
Theresa Heinz-Kerry??
Charlize Theron??
Al Sharpton??
Barack Obama???
The first two are true "African Americans"...
The latter two are Black people.
I agree that the tone is often more pejorative than the actual word itself.
Michale
359
I hear your point about geography, but if you really want to get technical, we're ALL one race.
Good point...
It kind of goes back to what I said above.
One of the arguments FOR the term "African American" is that, the ancestors of today's Black people came over from Africa..
But, if one goes back even further, then *ALL* of our ancestors came from Africa.
Using that logic, everyone in the country is an "African American"... Of course, that would mean that everyone in Germany is an "African German" and everyone in Italy is an "African Italian"...
You see how utterly ridiculous it can be??
How about this...
The racial definition for a Black person is "African"....
That has a lot more logic about it than the term "African American"...
Michale
360