What Reid, Pelosi, And Obama Should Say Now
Now is a critical time for America on the budget showdown, of course. But behind the real effects of the shutdown on the American public is the political arguing. While the entire news media waits for the first public opinion polls to come out on the shutdown (and the question they consider crucial: "Who should be blamed?"), Democrats have got to press the issue hard, and offer up some solid pushback on current Republican talking points. Below are the comments I would dearly love to hear from either House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, President Barack Obama, or some combination of the three. Ideally, it'd be issued as a letter, signed by all of them. Short of that, here are the points all Democrats interviewed in the media could be making right now, to great effect. Because if this thing is not resolved in the next day or so, it's going to erupt into a much bigger and more-drawn-out fight. And Democrats need to be ready for it.
In all fairness, I have to say that (so far) Democrats seem to be doing a pretty good job of communicating their position during the budget trainwreck. This is rather impressive, because Democrats aren't always this good at such basic political communication skills. Which is why I devote every Friday column I write to attempting to offer Democrats some ideas on how to frame their issues. In fact, this column is going to be very similar to these efforts -- call it a rare "Wednesday Talking Points" column, I suppose. In any case, here's my take on what positions Reid, Pelosi, and Obama should be staking out right now, in response to the Republican talking points currently floating around.
This is not about the budget
Previously, Republicans have staged these showdowns and shutdowns over the question of the budget and the deficit. Unfortunately for them, the deficit is falling at a faster rate than it has since World War II. The economy is improving, tax revenues are up, and spending has been cut. This takes the wind out of the Republicans' austerity sails. Make no mistake about it, this battle is not about the federal budget in any way, shape, or form. If there was some underlying "cut deficits" strategy to the Republican shutdown, then why would the House have passed a budget bill on the brink of the shutdown which increased the debt by $29 billion? Yes, you heard that right -- House Republicans, this Monday, wanted the Senate to increase the debt by billions to cut an Obamacare tax they didn't like. So -- please -- don't try to tell me this is about deficits or the budget, because Republicans' own actions prove that to be false.
This is about taking affordable health care away from millions
Make no mistake about it -- this entire fight is about taking affordable health insurance away from millions of Americans. You can't even accurately say that it was ever even about "stopping" Obamacare, because no matter what the Tea Partiers told their followers, the Republican bills could not actually stop the Obamacare funding which was already in place -- a mark of the silliness of the House Republicans' entire position. Obamacare exchanges opened for business Tuesday, and they were overwhelmed with people eager to sign up for health insurance they could afford -- without being told they weren't eligible because of a pre-existing condition. That's really all "Obamacare" ever was, folks. Far from being the "trainwreck" prophesied, the exchanges are now being upgraded (by adding more capacity) to being the equivalent of "bullet trains" -- capable of signing up millions of people on the same day. Think about that for a minute. And with every passing day, more and more Americans are signing up. So, from this point on, we're not talking about "delaying" or "defunding" anything. What we're talking about is taking affordable health insurance away from Americans who desperately want it. Denying it to them, in other words. Ask any cancer survivor who has now signed up on an exchange what the Republicans are fighting against -- they'll tell you.
The "Hastert Rule" is not actually in the Constitution
But let's turn to what is going on in Washington right now, as we attempt to bring an end this Republican shutdown. The first point worth making is to tell all those Tea Party folks to actually read the Constitution they all prominently carry around in their pockets. I'd like any of them to point out to me where in there it says that a bill can only advance in the House of Representatives if a "majority of the majority party" decides it is worthy. I'll save them some time -- it isn't there. The so-called "Hastert Rule," in fact, isn't even part of the official House of Representatives rules. What the Constitution actually says is that the House should pass legislation with a majority vote. That's a majority of all the House -- not just one party.
As the Republican shutdown goes on, the list of House Republicans who are willing to vote for a "clean" continuing resolution to end this Republican shutdown nightmare is growing. The last I checked, at least 18 House Republicans are on record stating that they'll vote for a clean bill. Together with the 200 Democrats, that makes a majority of the House. The only thing preventing Speaker John Boehner from ending the government shutdown -- right now -- is his own insistence on following a rule which doesn't even really exist. It's no longer even a partisan issue -- because the bipartisan support for a clean bill is growing by the hour. As the Republican shutdown drags on, more and more House Republicans will likely jump ship. It's just a question of when Boehner decides to act on what over a dozen House Republicans even now publicly state that they want. There is now a majority of the House ready and willing to end the Republican shutdown -- the only one standing in the way is John Boehner.
Republicans have blocked conference committees already
I notice that House Republicans thought they were being clever by proposing a conference committee between the House and the Senate to work out our differences. If we weren't in the midst of the pain of a Republican shutdown, this would actually be highly amusing. All year long, Democrats have begged Republicans to set up just such a committee on the budget. The Senate passed a budget, the House passed a budget, and the normal thing would have been to move to a conference committee. Except that the House Republicans hated and feared the idea. They hated the concept because they know Senate Republicans are more reasonable, and they feared that some sort of compromise that falls short of 100 percent of what they want would be achieved. So they blocked the idea. Repeatedly. Harry Reid tried to name members to such a conference committee 17 or 18 times -- and each time, the Republicans blocked it or filibustered it. Ted Cruz voted against the idea. In the House, they tried to tie the hands of any such committee by dictating what they could and couldn't even discuss in the committee -- which is just flat-out ridiculous. So I find it highly amusing that -- all of a sudden -- Republicans are trying to say that Democrats won't work with them on a conference committee. Because Democrats have been trying to do this all year long. Republicans have been blocking the committee's formation all year long. They had their chance at what's called "regular order." They refused to do so -- over and over again. So don't try any revisionist history now, because it hasn't been Democrats who have been against this idea, it has been Tea Party Republicans who have blocked it.
Democrats already conceded on the sequester
In normal times, Republicans would have declared victory and gone home by now. After all, Democrats made an enormous concession in the clean budget bill already -- because they agreed to continue the hated sequester. The Democratic negotiating position started by restoring the sequester funds, but Republicans refused to budge. So Democrats put politics aside and agreed to the full sequester in the bill, because the economy was too important to halt over one partisan issue.
Here is our offer
We can now move forward in one of two ways. The first is for John Boehner to allow a vote on the Senate bill in the House of Representatives. This is a clean bill which uses the Republican target number for the budget with the full sequester still in force. It does not include anything to do with Obamacare, period. The bipartisan support for passing this bill is growing in the House by the hour. So that's our first offer.
But if Republicans really want to extend the Republican shutdown for weeks, then Democrats are going to start from a brand-new bargaining position. And the first thing we're going to include is the restoration of the sequester funds, because it has been so damaging to the American economy. That's just the first thing we'll be asking for, in any negotiations.
One full year, nothing less
The second thing Democrats will be asking for is that any agreement over a budget will be for a full year instead of the paltry few weeks now covered by the clean Senate bill. There is simply no excuse for not passing a full year's budget, unless anyone thinks the American people are going to be somehow eager to see this fight fought all over again right before the holidays this year. Does anyone really want that? We don't. So any bill we agree to has to have a full year's budget -- that'll be non-negotiable.
Debt ceiling abolished, forever
If a terrorist organization somehow devised a button which, if pressed, could destroy the American dollar's value around the world, who among us would be urging them to make good on their threat? The American dollar, after all, is a big part of what makes the United States an exceptional nation. Since World War II, the American dollar has been the strongest currency on the planet. Other nations, to hedge against their own currency being devalued, stockpile American dollars, just in case. That is exceptional indeed -- the dollar is the world's favorite "reserve currency" for a reason.
The dollar is backed by the full faith and credit of the United States of America. That's it. Just a promise to the world that a dollar will be worth something in the future. But this exceptional standing in the world is threatened, each and every time the "debt ceiling" has to be raised. The entire concept of the debt ceiling, however, is nothing more than a modern fiction which continues to be perpetrated on the American people. No other industrialized nation in the world has such a concept. In all other countries, when budgets are passed, debts are approved. When the American Congress passes a budget that incurs debt, exactly the same thing happens -- they have also approved the debts necessary to fund that budget.
Anyone who reads the plain language of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution can see that the entire concept of a "debt ceiling" -- and, most especially, the threat from some in Congress to refuse to approve debts which have already been incurred -- is nothing short of unconstitutional on the face of it. "The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law... shall not be questioned." Got that? Shall not be questioned. That's pretty unambiguous, folks. This language was specifically inserted in order to tie the hands of future Congresses so they couldn't play partisan games with the national debt. That was its purpose. That was its intent. All we will be doing is reconfirming what the Fourteenth Amendment already dictates.
Democrats will now insist -- in any budget legislation proposed -- to include plain language which removes the fiction of the debt ceiling, for all time. We will insist on a clause which states "from this point forward, any spending which is approved by Congress as any part of the federal budget will also, if necessary, adjust the national debt accordingly; to insure the continued full faith and credit of the United States of America and the exceptional nature of the American dollar around the world."
If Republicans vote against the exceptionalism of the American dollar, Democrats' fallback position will be -- as a non-negotiable minimum -- a one-year extension for the debt ceiling. We'll be arguing for its abolishment as a fictional concept forever; but make no mistake, we will not negotiate over extending it for a full year.
"No Budget, No Pay" Constitutional Amendment
Democrats' final bargaining position will be unrelated to the budget bill. Democrats will be introducing an amendment to the Constitution which states that any time a federal budget is not passed and in place at the start of the fiscal year, no member of Congress will be paid. Period. Oh, and no voting to restore any pay withheld during such a period later, either.
Think this is pie in the sky? Think it'd never work? Think again. California used to have terrible problems passing a state budget every year. The legislature was routinely months late in doing so, resulting in state employees being paid with IOUs. So the citizens passed a law by referendum. The law stated that a full budget -- not gimmickry or trickery or "continuing resolutions" -- had to be in place or else lawmakers would not get paid.
Since this law passed, California has not had a single budget delay (except for the first year, when legislators tested the law and the courts cried "foul" on them). Gone are the times when state government shutdowns lasted months or even weeks. Instead, the state legislature passes budgets on time, each and every year. Full budgets. Complete budgets. Every single time.
The threat of not being paid has worked a political miracle in California. We think it would work equally as well at the federal level. So we will be introducing our "No Budget, No Pay" constitutional amendment into both houses of Congress, and part of our agreeing to a budget deal is going to be an agreement by the leadership of both houses of Congress to allow the amendment to be introduced on the floor, to be debated, and to be voted upon.
Our guess is that it'll be hard for any member of Congress to justify voting against such an amendment. Our guess is that it'll be wildly popular out in the state legislatures as they debate ratification. And what's not a guess -- what is absolutely, positively certain -- is that the American people will overwhelmingly support this idea. While we're solving the current shutdown impasse, let's take this step to cut the pay of the people involved in creating any future impasses.
Vote or deal, Speaker Boehner
So, to Speaker John Boehner, we offer two choices. The first is to vote on the Senate's clean budget bill right now. Republicans are defecting from your shutdown hour by hour, and sooner or later it's going to become obvious to all that you are being held captive by a small branch of your own party. You can avoid this by allowing a bipartisan vote on the clean Senate bill right now.
Or, as you have offered, we can continue the Tea Party shutdown, and hash out our differences in some sort of committee. Well, should you choose that route, we've laid out what our bargaining position will be for such a conference: restore the sequester, pass a full year's budget, abolish the fictional debt ceiling forever, and guarantee a vote on a new "No Budget, No Pay" constitutional amendment on the floor of the House.
That's just where we'll be starting from. But I have to warn you, our Democratic membership wants even more. If you continue to insist on attacking Obamacare, then we will begin insisting on attaching the Senate immigration reform bill to the deal. This bill passed with a large bipartisan majority in the Senate, and we are confident that it will pass with an equally-impressive bipartisan majority in the House. So take your choice: violate your own self-imposed Hastert Rule on the clean Senate budget bill right now, or face the prospect that we just might demand you do so on the Senate immigration bill later.
It's your choice, Speaker Boehner. We've laid out our bargaining positions, and it is now up to you to decide what to do next.
-- Chris Weigant
Cross-posted at The Huffington Post
Follow Chris on Twitter: @ChrisWeigant
Hey CW,
Very timely article. I've been pondering this today in my few minutes of free time.
Many nice points in this including: Taking healthcare away from millions, a full year budget instead of the insane couple weeks offered, and starting negotiations from scratch.
I'd like to see Democrats go after the core belief underlying all this bullcrap. The religion of the private sector. I'd like to see President Obama say something like this ...
I know there are some people who don't believe in government and will go to any lengths to end government, including putting our country at risk by shutting the government down.
They say they want to negotiate over healthcare. I want to remind the American people that the negotiation already happened. It took over a year, it was painful, and there were many compromises. It's called the Affordable Care Act. In this negotiation, we compromised on a conservative, market-based solution. Single Payer and the Public Option were set aside to reach a consensus which would pass Congress.
Now there are those who say they want to negotiate again. They don't want to negotiate. They want to undo the negotiation.
And, they're ok if government fails because they don't believe in government.
It's a rather perverse incentive, electing people who don't believe in government to government. Isn't this a self-fulfilling prophecy? Doesn't this guarantee government will fail?
I believe there are some thing government does well, and some things the public sector does well.
If the government fails at something we should look at private sector solutions. And if the private sector fails, we should consider government solutions.
What we shouldn't be doing is purposefully undermining our country. Remember, our Democratic government is what we in America are famous for the world over.
Let's figure out a balance that works best for everyone instead of relying on anti-government dogma.
---
People are tired of the anti-government bullcrap. If President Obama spoke about what he believes in and the craziness that is "government can do no good," he'd find a lot of people rallying to his side.
-David
p.s. Apologies for the long post but this hit a nerve
David,
The last thing you ever need to do here is apologize for a long post!
That was a complete pleasure to read. I would like to hear President Obama say EXACTLY that!
House Democrats, this Monday, wanted the Senate to increase the debt by billions to cut an Obamacare tax they didn't like.
type-o?
by the way, i also love the bugs bunny tactic that you're suggesting. when daffy demands more, offer less. constitutional amendmentment outlawing lobbying, and that's my final offer!
"Shoot the duck!"
~Daffy Duck
nypoet22 -
Dang!
There were actually two of them (so far, still re-reading...)
I notice that House Democrats thought they were being clever by proposing a conference committee between the House and the Senate to work out our differences.
Whoops!
I have no idea what made me type "Democrats" instead of "Republicans" twice, but mea culpa maxima all the same... there was also a misplaced apostrophe I've also fixed...
-CW
nypoet22 -
As for Bugs...
"It's wabbit season / It's duck season / It's wabbit season / It's... wabbit season / It's duck season... shoot!"
Heh. I use reverse psychology on my cat all the time. Works wonders!
:-)
-CW
In all fairness, I have to say that (so far) Democrats seem to be doing a pretty good job of communicating their position during the budget trainwreck.
Oh, come on!!
Democrats are getting decimated in the PR war!!
From Reid's remark about why would Democrats want to help kids with cancer to Obama declaring war on WWII veterans (these are FACTS, by the bi) the Democrats are absolutely trounced by the GOP PR machine...
You KNOW the Dems are feeling the pressure when they start using terrorist slurs against the GOP....
Ya'all must realize this too because why else would ya'all do a Friday Talking Points on Thursday?? :D
Michale
As I said in the previous commentary, the Democrats can stop their shutdown today..
All they have to do is agree to the same delay for everyday Americans that they gave their corporate cronies...
It's NOT taking away insurance from ANYONE. Those who WANT to sign up for obamacare can still do so.
All Democrats have to agree to is to not FORCE Americans to sign up...
I honestly don't understand WHY ya'all wouldn't agree with that. Unless, of course, you know that obamacare isn't about getting health insurance to those who want it, but rather just feeding the coffers of corporate sleazebags...
Ya'all claim compromise is the watchword around DC..
So, let's see the Democrats compromise...
This shutdown is all 1000% completely and unequivocally owned by Democrats and Obama..
Michale
Ya'all must realize this too because why else would ya'all do a Friday Talking Points on Thursday?? :D
It IS Thursday, right??? :D
Michale
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/2/doves-and-peaceniks-no-more-these-democrats-relish/
Oh yes, Democrats are feeling the heat..
After all they have done to this country, it's a pleasure to watch them implode because of their own mismanagement, greed and incompetence...
Michale
As I said in the previous commentary, the Democrats can stop their shutdown today..
All they have to do is agree to the same delay for everyday Americans that they gave their corporate cronies...
It's NOT taking away insurance from ANYONE. Those who WANT to sign up for obamacare can still do so.
All Democrats have to agree to is to not FORCE Americans to sign up...
This is a point worth repeating..
Beyond making sure millions go to corporate cronies, there is only ONE reason why ya'all and Democrats won't agree to the 1 year delay.
Because it would give the Republicans a "win"..
And, just like ya'all accuse Republicans of acting vis a vis giving a "win" to Obama, Democrats would rather see this country and the American people suffer rather than give a "win" to the Republicans.
Which simply proves (AGAIN) what I have said all along.
There really isn't any difference between Republicans and Democrats...
Michale
David,
Single Payer and the Public Option were set aside to reach a consensus which would pass Congress.
There was no consensus..
Backroom deals were made so that obamacare could pass.. And it passed completely without ANY Republican support.
The only "compromises" that were made, were made solely and completely to garner DEMOCRAT support.
So, if you have an issue with the compromises that were made, take it up with your own Party..
I also remind you that the American people have NEVER supported obamacare.
The majority of Americans have ALWAYS... repeat... *ALWAYS* been against obamacare..
That's a fact that ya'all always seem to forget..
So, let's dispense with this idea that obamacare had a "consensus".. It never did. obamacare's "consensus" is as mythical as the scientists' "consensus" over Human Caused Global Warming (Yet The Planet Is Cooling) theory...
Michale
More evidence of Obama's Make-It-Hurt shutdown strategy...
http://dailycaller.com/2013/10/02/monuments-and-memorials-remained-open-during-previous-shutdown/
Obama and the Democrats are WAY overplaying their hand..
They are going to suffer big time over this..
Michale
Thanx to Obama, we have a new word in the dictionary.
"barrycade" NOUN An immature and spiteful barrier designed to inflict maximum discomfort and inconvenience on innocent people.
"barrycade" VERB A childish attempt to block access. See also: "Temper Tantrum"...
Michale
JL,
by the way, i also love the bugs bunny tactic that you're suggesting. when daffy demands more, offer less. constitutional amendmentment outlawing lobbying, and that's my final offer!
So, you would agree that if Democrats cave in and give Americans the 1 year delay that their corporate cronies got, Republicans should respond with, "That deal was sooo yesterday. NOW we want the mandate eliminated!"
Good for the goose, good for the gander...
Wouldn't you agree?? :D
Michale
Hi Guys
Been a while! I've been busy with various projects...
Anyway excellent article CW. Few other points for the 'This is not about the budget' section:
1. The shutdown adds to the US deficit directly by adding unnecessary costs everywhere
2. The shutdown adds to the deficit indirectly through economic costs (estimated at $300m a day)
3. The shutdown could see more people claiming Government benefits - again adding to the deficit - but pretty ironic considering the moronic part of the Republican party creating this situation hates these people the most.
It is also certainly worth pointing out that Republicans have chosen to deliberately harm the US economy (for no reason) because they know it is only going to get better and a good economy is bad for their 'Obama is a socialist' message.
Also it seems that Republicans must think Obamacare is going to be a success. Why else would they go to such extreme measures to try and stop it's implementation? That last time they shut the Government down was over Medicare and look what happened with this.
Having said that, I often forget that this shutdown is driven by a minority of moronic, idiotic, lunatic extremists. So applying logic, common sense and rationality to assess their actions is probably quite pointless...
Also in some ways it's a shame it's only a partial Government shutdown. This shutdown only impacted the 'non-crucial' parts of Government and you can see the public backlash to this. Imagine they'd shut down all parts of Government. It would be a disaster for the 'Government is evil, get it out our lives' part of the Republican party.
This is another aspect that the lunatics didn't consider: when you shut down parts of Government and people hate it, this kills your 'Government is evil' central mention.
The whole thing is probably one of the dumbest political moves I've ever seen. But hey this is the lunatic, moronic, crazy part of the Republicans. So we shouldn't be too shocked.
* motion - not mention
This is another aspect that the lunatics didn't consider: when you shut down parts of Government and people hate it, this kills your 'Government is evil' central mention.
Actually, considering the MAKE IT HURT strategy being implemented by the Obama Administration, it's RE-ENFORCING the idea that government is evil..
I mean, who knew that the WWII memorial would need more security than Benghazi to protect it from... {gasp}... WWII veterans!!!
By the bi, welcome back, michty! :D
Michale
Having said that, I often forget that this shutdown is driven by a minority of moronic, idiotic, lunatic extremists.
Yea, but Democrats DO have some good things about them...
Can't really name any at the moment, but I am sure they do....
Michale
Yea, but Democrats DO have some good things about them...
Can't really name any at the moment, but I am sure they do....
"Patience is not one of my virtues. Actually, I don't have any virtues. But if I DID have any virtues, I am sure that patience would not be one of them."
-Crowley, SUPERNATURAL
:D
Michale
Well, at least we know Obama's priorities...
Base Exchanges (grocery stores) are closed on military installations..
But the golf course at Andrews is open...
Can't mess with The Exalted One's golf schedule, eh?? :^/
Michale
Wow. 8 Michale comments in a row. That must mean we're onto something!
:)
when daffy demands more, offer less. constitutional amendmentment outlawing lobbying, and that's my final offer!
Heheh. Love it. One of the best signs the GOP is feeling the heat I've seen: Darrell Issa announces a plan to replace Obamacare with Obamacare.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/top-republican-calls-replacing-obamacare-193739366.html
You can't make this stuff up!
-David
p.s. Stay strong, President Obama!
BTW, Liz ... Obama came out with some fire this morning!
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/04/us/politics/congress-budget-battle.html?_r=0
Win The Future redux....
National number to sign up for obamacare
1-800-F UCKYO
Jeezus, Obama's people couldn't be more inept and incompetent if they tried!!
His PR people should be canned...
Michale
Wow. 8 Michale comments in a row. That must mean we're onto something!
Naw, it just means I have such a target rich environment that ya'all can't keep up.. :D
Michale
BTW, Liz ... Obama came out with some fire this morning!
Same old "It's not MY fault" Passing The Buck Obama...
He can end the shutdown right now by agreeing to the same 1 yr delay he gave his corporate cronies.
I notice how you constantly ignore that fact...
Why is that?? :D
Michale
David,
I'd liked to have seen Obama get a little more angry this morning. I mean I'd be pretty pissed if one minority section of the minority party (who didn't even get 50% of the vote) was basically trying to deliberately screw up the entire US economy just because they're spoilt little babies, angry that they lost the election last year and can't stand that America is actually progressing (for once)...
Michale,
How would you feel if Democrats said "we'll agree to your spending bill but we've attached a completely unrelated bill to it that means everyone will have the public option for healthcare - because we know how much you hate the public option but we kinda like it".
Or "spending bill + a ban on all automatic weapons".
I could keep going but you get the idea. Take the spending bill and add something that all Republicans are completely universally against and unwilling to compromise on at all.
I'd bet you'd be ranting away at how unreasonable they were being and how they'd totally lost the plot and were completely insane if they ever thought Republicans would agree with their demands. I'm going to hazard a guess that somehow the idea that Republicans should 'compromise' would never come up under these circumstances...
Wow. 8 Michale comments in a row. That must mean we're onto something!
But hay... If you want to refute my facts with some of your own..
You can be like the killer in STIFFS and, "Take a stab at it!" :D
Michale
I could keep going but you get the idea. Take the spending bill and add something that all Republicans are completely universally against and unwilling to compromise on at all.
Obama and the Democrats have PROVEN that they are not "completely against" a 1-year delay on the mandate.
They gave it to their corporate cronies.
So your example doesn't fit the situation we find ourselves in...
There are only TWO reasons to be against the 1-year delay for the personal mandate..
1. Obama and the Dems need to fill the coffers of their corporate cronies..
2. Obama and the Dems simply CANNOT give the Republicans a "win"...
That's it.....
You are trying to compare oranges and alligators...
Michale
So your example doesn't fit the situation we find ourselves in...
There are only TWO reasons to be against the 1-year delay for the personal mandate..
1. Boehner and the Repubs need to fill the coffers of their corporate cronies..
2. Boehner and the Repubs simply CANNOT give the Democrats a "win"...
That's it.....
It works both ways...
It works both ways...
Actually, it doesn't..
The only corporate coffers that are being filled are due to obamacare...
Republicans have nothing to do with obamacare..
Like michty, you are comparing oranges and alligators..
Secondly, the GOP already offered the Democrats a way out.. Agree to the same 1-year delay for everyday Americans that Democrats gave to corporate cronies..
Obama and the Democrats refuse to give the American people that same break...
This shutdown is completely and unequivocally owned by Obama and the Democrats...
These are the facts...
Michale
Harry Reid blocks funding for veterans programs, national parks
http://washingtonexaminer.com/harry-reid-blocks-funding-for-veterans-programs-national-parks/article/2536769
This is bad, VERY bad for Democrats..
I mean, of the two Partys, which Party has the reputation for spitting (figuratively AND literally) on veterans??
Democrats are digging themselves into a deeper and deeper hole...
Michale
Grrrrr I hate unclosed attributes...
Michale
I mean, of the two Partys, which Party has the reputation for spitting (figuratively AND literally) on veterans??
The one that keeps trying to cutting funding to veteran programs? Hint: their name does not start with a D :D
The one that keeps trying to cutting funding to veteran programs?
Really??
They have a reputation for LITERALLY spitting on Veterans???
Of course, you can PROVE that, right??? You have the FACTS to back that up, right??
:D
Michale
Why can't no one answer this simple question??
Why won't Obama and Democrats agree to the same 1 year delay for every day Americans that they agreed to for corporate cronies??
Any answer???
ANYONE?? Beuhler???
Michale
I'd liked to have seen Obama get a little more angry this morning.
Heh. Me too. I think this morning was about as angry as he gets :)
I think people respond to passion. Especially if you want to win people over.
Good to hear from you michty!
-David
They have a reputation for LITERALLY spitting on Veterans???
Of course, you can PROVE that, right??? You have the FACTS to back that up, right??
So, Mr hysteria has to go back four decades to come up with something? I was talking about the "figuratively" and ignoring the "literally" as it's too silly to address. The spiting was bad and not a great moment for the anti Vietnam war movement. That more than a miniscule amount of democrats actually engaged in it is silly. Can you prove that the few who did so are all registered democrats today? None of them are republicans? Your joined you as independents?
* Or joined you as independents?
I am simply referring to the reputation.
It's undeniable that the Democratic Party was the Party of spitting on veterans..
As such, one would think that Democrats would take care not to be perceived as screwing over Veterans..
AGAIN...
That was my entire point and you have offered nothing factual that refutes that point...
Further, Harry Why-Would-We-Want-To-Help-Kids-With-Cancer Reid is in a rather precarious position to begin with..
Why he thinks it's a good idea to screw over Veterans is beyond me..
Michale
It's undeniable that the Democratic Party was the Party of spitting on veterans..
No, the spitters were probably Democrats (or independents/not registered). Unless you can come up with proof that the national democratic party gave their blessing to the spitting your point is silly. Timothy McVeigh was a registered republican at some point in his life, does that make all republicans terrorists? He was later most likely an independent with libertarian leanings. Does that make you a terrorist?
And the "save the children" argument regardless of which side it comes from is such a huge red herring. There are so many programs at the federal, state, local and private level to insure kids have insurance that only parental incompetence prevents them from getting it...
Unless you can come up with proof that the national democratic party gave their blessing to the spitting your point is silly.
It's only "silly" because it doesn't fit in with your mindset..
Do I really need to reach back and post all the newsreels of how veterans were welcomed home from Vietnam???
Do I REALLY need to post all the newsreels of Democrats like John Kerry and Jane Fonda to show that the Democratic Party actively despised veterans and the military??
Face up to the history of your Party... Accept it...
There are so many programs at the federal, state, local and private level to insure kids have insurance that only parental incompetence prevents them from getting it...
Which doesn't change the fact that Harry Reid is on record as saying why would Democrats want to help kids with cancer..
it's a fact..
Deal with it...
Michale
Wow! 45 comments... :D
I guess it's been an exciting day.... :D
Or a slow day here at work.. :D
Michale...
The Republican idea of compromise in one tweet ...
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/10/03/1243743/-Republican-idea-of-compromise-summarized-perfectly-in-one-tweet
-David
The Republican idea of compromise in one tweet ...
Giving the American people the same 1 year delay on the mandate that Obama and the Democrats gave their corporate cornies hardly constitutes a valid comparison to burning down a house..
Why won't Obama and the Democrats agree to the SAME delay for the American people that they gave their corporate stooges???
Do you have an answer for THAT??
Because, until you do, you and the Democrats are in the wrong here.
Pure and simple...
Michale
Do you have an answer for THAT?
We already talked about this. I'm with you, it was the wrong original decision. They should have just done it.
It doesn't mean we should hold off, however, allowing people to sign up for healthcare coverage.
-David
It doesn't mean we should hold off, however, allowing people to sign up for healthcare coverage.
Delaying the mandate won't do that.
It will still allow people to sign up who WANT to sign up..
It will delay FORCING people to sign up.
So....
NOW, what is the reason for Democrats not to delay the personal mandate???
Do you agree with me that Democrats should delay the personal mandate???
Michale
NOW, what is the reason for Democrats not to delay the personal mandate?
It will allow people to avoid their responsibility.
Do you agree with me that Democrats should delay the personal mandate?
If we're going to do it, let's do it.
Delaying doesn't buy anything except more time for Republicans to try to eliminate it. Of course, that's clearly your goal.
BTW, what was that you were saying about the American people again
http://www.quinnipiac.edu/institutes-and-centers/polling-institute/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=1958
-David
It will allow people to avoid their responsibility.
So, now the government is keeper of the morals??
There is no reason NOT to delay the personal mandate save 1> making sure corporate cronies get their $$$ and 2> making sure Republicans don't get a win..
The government being keeper of the morals is NOT a good reason to force the personal mandate...
BTW, what was that you were saying about the American people again
Congrats.. You found an outlier...
Show me another dozen of those type polls and you might have an argument..
But we both know that you can't... :D
Michale
If we're going to do it, let's do it.
But we're NOT going to "do it"...
The corporate cronies got their break..
Why can't every day Americans get their break??
There is no good answer for that save number 1 and number 2 above...
1. Corporate cronies NEED the cash...
2. Republicans MUST NOT get a win...
There's your reasons...
Michale
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57605822/poll-americans-not-happy-about-shutdown-more-blame-gop/
Show me another dozen of those type polls and you might have an argument.
Only because a dozen polls don't exist :)
Let's be honest though. It probably wouldn't matter.
-David
How about this though as a compromise, Michale ... what if we went with the public option and no mandate?
-David
So, you would agree that if Democrats cave in and give Americans the 1 year delay that their corporate cronies got, Republicans should respond with, "That deal was sooo yesterday. NOW we want the mandate eliminated!"
that was their position from the get-go anyway. we may quibble over whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, but there's little doubt that the "one-year delay" is just a stall tactic to give them time to find a more permanent way to end the ACA before it begins.
The republican tactic has generally been to start from their most extreme position to begin with, so there really isn't much further for them to go. dems on the other hand tend to start from a position they consider "reasonable," and then "compromise" on what the republicans really wanted anyway. of course, maybe that's all a show and it's what the democrats wanted too, but that's a question for another time i suppose.
JL
David,
How about this though as a compromise, Michale
... what if we went with the public option and no mandate?
My only problem with obamacare is the mandate...
You get rid of the mandate and I probably still won't like obamacare, but at least it's not forced on the American people..
JL,
Sounds to me like it's the Republicans who have the better technique than the Democrats.
Ask for a LOT more than you really want and then compromise down to what you wanted in the first place..
Makes sense to me. :D
By the bi..
NOW ya gotta pay up! :D
Michale
My only problem with obamacare is the mandate...
Allow me to clarify that..
I don't like obamacare because it claims to lower costs, but it raises them.
It claims to have low insurance rates but most rates are actually higher, sometimes as much as 4 times higher..
It will force doctors to close their practices because they can't afford to stay in business.
It has forced businesses to cut employees hours and pay..
So, I don't like obamacare for all those reasons..
BUT...
But if it didn't FORCE American citizens into insurance that they can't afford and doesn't cover anything, then all those reasons why I hate obamacare wouldn't matter...
obamacare is not good for this country.
And, as has become painfully clear in the last 3 days, obamacare is a train wreck..
It might get better.
It might not.
But it is simply undeniable that, as of this moment in time, obamacare is a train wreck..
Michale
but there's little doubt that the "one-year delay" is just a stall tactic to give them time to find a more permanent way to end the ACA before it begins.
I am also constrained to point out (again) that this is what the American people want.
To get rid of obamacare...
So, when you get right down to it, the Republicans are doing their jobs by serving the interests of the American people.
And it's Obama and the Democrats who are screwing over and ignoring the American people..
Food for thought....
Michale
Another first hand account of the trials and tribulations of obamacare..
http://www.tennessean.com/article/20131002/BUSINESS05/310020123/2265/BUSINESS05?gcheck=1&nclick_check=1
Time to hit the phones. On the contact page of healthcare.gov, there’s a tab that says “Find local help.” I entered my ZIP code and pulled up the names of several places that should have resources. First on the list was the Nashville Academy of Medicine, which I called at 9:48 a.m. and was promptly and very politely put on hold.
“OK, ma’am,” said a nice lady at 9:51 a.m., “we have not been trained yet. We are listed on there, but we are not the appropriate people to help.” She recommended I call an organization called Health Assist.
Get that??
obamacare operators "haven't been trained yet"!
What the frak are they waiting for???
So I did. “Unfortunately we don’t have any exact pricing information that’s ready right now,” said another kind person. If I wanted to enroll via phone, she said, I could call the federal assistance line.
The obamacare information line didn't have pricing yet..
Again, what the frak are they waiting for??
By this time, it was 10:33 a.m. I tried calling local “navigators,” or people trained to guide those of us seeking insurance through the exchange. I’ll skim the next part of the story, which involves a string of robots telling me that my call was very important, putting me on hold, then dropping the line.
That's a great way to treat customers. Put them on hold and then disconnect them...
11:39 a.m.: No more robots, I was going to find a human being. I drove to the address from the lady on the government help line. Now, I understand that some help centers are up and running throughout the city, but this particular location was a vacant building next to a Holiday Inn Express. At 12:20 p.m., I exited the premises defeated and uninsured.
Needs no clarification....
I bet Obama and the Democrats are wishing they would have agreed to that one year delay for EVERYONE, instead of just their corporate cronies, eh?
Michale
NOW ya gotta pay up! :D
NOW you're getting delusional ;)
trains can't wreck when they haven't started moving yet. talk to me in a year when there will be sufficient data to make an informed judgment. i'm open to the possibility that you may turn out to be right, but trying to claim now that your point of view has been vindicated by less than a week of clerical errors? that's just plain absurd.
JL
i mean come on, the main reason the train hasn't been able to start moving yet is that all the passengers are trying to board at once. folks don't have to join until march, but they're rushing through the doors like the shopping crowd on black friday, which factually speaking puts lie to the assertion that obamacare is something the american people don't want.
JL
NOW you're getting delusional ;)
I was actually referring to the shut down. :D
I agree that, as far as obamacare goes, it might get better.
But you have to concede. As obamacare is evaluated right at this moment, it's a disaster. An unmitigated and unequivocal disaster.
Michale
i mean come on, the main reason the train hasn't been able to start moving yet is that all the passengers are trying to board at once. folks don't have to join until march, but they're rushing through the doors like the shopping crowd on black friday, which factually speaking puts lie to the assertion that obamacare is something the american people don't want.
How long as the Obama administration had to prepare for this day??
A couple YEARS!????
There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for these kinds of problems to be happening..
If the administration truly believed that obamacare is as good as they SAID it was, then it would have been the SMART move to prepare for such "popularity", right???
No excuse whatsoever for the glitches that are happening.
It is incompetence, pure and simple...
Michale
Good to hear from you michty!
Thanks! I'm not going to lie, part of me was intrigued to see how Fox/Drudge/Right-wing-echo chamber could possibly spin this as Obama's fault. Then I thought rather than go to their sites, I'd just come back on hear and read Michale's comments and save the time!
And I can't say I've been disappointed. Beauties like this classic Michale use of the word 'facts':
This shutdown is completely and unequivocally owned by Obama and the Democrats...
These are the facts...
I think of an analogy of how this entire budget fiasco played out as akin to the following stages:
1. Don't pass any budget bill, veto all meetings and ensure it will come down to the last minute.
2. At the last minute introduce a budget bill that requires Obama to shoot himself in the face.
3. Ok let's compromise 'we only want him to shoot himself in the stomcach now'.
4. Fine. We'll compromise further. 'We only want him to shoot himself in the foot now'. That's it. We're done. OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE OBAMA WON'T NEGOTIATE ON THIS - HE WON'T COMPROMISE! HE IS THE DEVIL, SOCIALIST, EVIL etc etc etc
The whole thing is hilarious. It just shows you how pathetic the echo chamber is that the Republicans can play this game and not be absolutely destroyed by the American people (yes polls show they are taking a hit, but not as big as it should be).
Actually my analogy in [65] isn't quite correct. This is more like how it played out:
Democrats = We'd like to meet to begin formal discussions on a CR for the Government.
Republicans = No, we'd only like to meet 1 week before the budget date. And it's nothing to do with us wanting to take the country hostage, it's because you know we're busy and stuff
Repeat the above 18 times for every formal Democrat request. Fast forward to 1 week before budget due date
Democrats = We propose this budget
Republicans = Your spending is too high, we propose this reduced spending budget
Democrats = Ok fine. We compromise and accept your reduced spending budget.
Republicans = Sorry we changed our minds. We now propose a reduced spending budget with an add on that requires Obama to shoot himself in the face.
Democrats = ???? WTF, what on earth is wrong with you morons. Of course we're not going to accept that...
Republicans = Ok let's compromise 'we only want him to shoot himself in the stomcach now'.
Democrats = You guys are out of your mind.
Republicans = Fine. We'll compromise further. 'We only want him to shoot himself in the foot now'. That's it. We're done.
Democrats = You've got to be kidding me, just pass the God damn reduced spending bill we negotiated. Heck we'll even run it through the Senate.
Republicans = OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE OBAMA WON'T NEGOTIATE ON THIS - HE WON'T COMPROMISE! HE IS THE DEVIL, SOCIALIST, EVIL etc etc etc
That's our michty..
Long on hysterical partisan bigotry..
Not a fact in sight..
Good ta have ya back! :D
Michale
I'd be laughing michty if it weren't so true (ok, i'm still able to laugh). This guy said it best:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/dk-production/images/51524/large/tumblr_mu2ai6sgfU1qat9xfo1_500.png?1380814234
What actually amazes me, since the media has been largely bought or cowed by conservatives, is how many people still fight through the endless torrent of bullshit.
-David
Still waiting for facts, ANY facts that show Democrats are right in this..
The only thing I have seen coming from the Left is hysterical emotionalism...
Michale
The rest of us are still waiting for a reasonable explanation why Republicans shut the government down.
Whenever they don't get their way, is this going to happen?
-David
Or why Obama-care has anything to do with a Government funding bill which doesn't include ANY Obama-care funding (Obama-care is up and running just now even as other parts are shut-down)? Or why they turned down every single offer to negotiate this before now and left it until the last week? Or why a clean funding bill is not put before the House when the MAJORITY of the House have indicated they will support it? Or why a minority of the minority branch of Government (who didn't even get >50% of House votes) are able to ignore the will of the majority? etc etc
I just realised today that apparent Moby has very similar views to me on American politics:
"Obama has made a lot of mistakes, but I do think ultimately he's very strategically trying to advance a progressive agenda within the framework of the power structure of the United States. I don't agree with everything he does, but I don't think he's done anything too egregious; a lot of the policies he's criticized for were actually started before he was president," says Moby.
"I think he could be doing things better, of course, everyone does, but I'm not gonna criticize it. I have some friends who are hardcore lefties who loathe Obama and I was like, 'Really? Really? You want the alternative?'"
While Moby doesn't give Obama's presidency anything higher than 'a solid B,' he gives George W Bush's presidency a D-minus and as for the Tea Party wing of the Republican party, well, he says they are "batshit-fucking-racist-atavistic-crazy."
This about sums it up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kKmdRZnjm2k
Or "We're not going to be disrespected. We have to get something out of this. And I don't know what that even is" Marlin Stutzman (R-IN)
Yeh give us something or we won't do anything! Sums up the GOP hostage situation perfectly.
The rest of us are still waiting for a reasonable explanation why Republicans shut the government down.
Oh, that's easy..
Because Democrats wouldn't compromise and give Middle Class Americans the same delay that they gave their corporate cronies..
Michale
Whenever they don't get their way, is this going to happen?
Whenever Democrats don't get there way, yes. It's going to happen...
Michale
Give Middle Class Americans the SAME consideration that Obama and the Democrats gave their corporate cronies.
That's ALL Democrats have to do...
I guess that, for Democrats, making sure their corporate cronies enjoy a windfall is more important than the will of the American people.
These are the facts...
Michale
I was actually referring to the shut down. :D
fair enough, i said it would be over thursday and i'm eating my words with hot sauce.
But you have to concede. As obamacare is evaluated right at this moment, it's a disaster. An unmitigated and unequivocal disaster.
not at all. at the moment it's not a train wreck, just a traffic jam. social security and medicare still have glitches even now, and they're both extremely old and extremely successful. be a little more patient; over the course of the next year or so we'll find out whether obamacare holds water.
Ms. Vito, please answer the question: does the defense's case hold water?
~MCV
Looks like I jumped the gun..
obamacare's ONLY recognized enrollee was bogus...
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-04/is-obamacare-s-first-enrollee-bogus-.html
Does ANYONE know of a person who actually was able to enroll in obamacare???
Michale
JL,
Given what we know NOW....
obamacare is a train wreck...
That could change in the future...
But for the here and now..
obamacare is a train wreck...
Michale
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." - Abraham Lincoln
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." - Abraham Lincoln
Words that Democrats should take heed..
The Republicans have already compromised up the wazoo...
Now all that they (AND the American People) are asking is that everyday middle class Americans get the same consideration that Obama and the Democrats gave their corporate cronies..
I honestly and truly am shocked that ya'all are fighting ON BEHALF of the corporate cronies AGAINST the middle class...
Once again, the power of the almighty '-D' at work......
Michale
Michale [25] -
Except, of course, that that's only six digits. Because this story is false. There's a "1" in there they conveniently forgot about...
-CW
Michale [34/35] -
Fixed.
-CW
Michale [38] -
OK, here's an answer: because slipping the business deadline one year was due to the paperwork being too onerous, and the business complaining. This will only affect small businesses, though -- a total of 5% of all businesses in the US are affected by what was pushed back one year.
It's a small part of Obamacare, and it doesn't impact the major program. And, it was to help small businesses, not "Big Business". Fox has been lying to you.
The individual mandate, however, is one of the major parts of the program. To delay it would delay the whole program. That's why it won't be delayed.
-CW
Michale [42] -
(1) the whole "spitting on Vietnam vets" thing is more an urban myth than fact, sorry. Kind of like the "Tea Partiers spitting on black congressmen going to work" myth -- remember that one?
(2) the people doing so (if there indeed were any) were not Democrats by that point -- after Chicago in 1968, they had given up on the two-party system entirely. Kind of like the (very early) Tea Party.
-CW
Michale [60] -
You realize, of course, that a customer support system that is overwhelmed means that an overwhelming amount of people want to be customers?
Seems this contradicts the straight GOP party line "everybody hates Obamacare", no???
Heh.
If Obamacare is so horrendous, then why oh why are millions of people trying to sign up for it the first week it's available? Wonder what Spock would have to say about that "logic"...
:-)
-CW
michty6 [65] -
Excellent comment. And welcome back!
:-)
-CW
michty6 [66] -
Oh, snap! Even better!
I posted a comment on an earlier article, this is the best I've heard it put (but yours comes in a close second):
GOP: Obama must resign now, or we'll tank the economy.
Obama: No.
GOP: OK, Obama must resign one year from now, or we'll tank the economy now.
Obama: No. There was an election, guys...
GOP: Obama won't compromise! Waaaah! We're shutting the government down!
But I still like yours, too...
-CW
Michale [69] -
Facts? You mean, like poll numbers?
Heh. Couldn't resist.
-CW
mythical as the scientists' "consensus" over Human Caused Global Warming (Yet The Planet Is Cooling) theory...
michale, this particular piece of moose poop irks me because you don't seem to be learning anything from prior discussions or evidence that has been presented therein. stating the same misleading half-truth over and over even though the more complex factual picture has been well established, is just as fundamentalist a religious belief as any doomsday scenario al gore could dream up.
since i do need to sleep and have soccer in the morning, here's a helpful site to refresh your memory:
http://www.skepticalscience.com/global-cooling-basic.htm
please read both basic and intermediate in their entirety before responding.
JL
michty6 [73] -
Stutzman indeed took the cake this week, for accidentally admitting how clueless the Tea Partiers truly are.
:-)
-CW
nypoet22 [77] -
Forget hot sauce. I predicted Boehner would never be stupid enough to go this far. I'm eating humble pie right now, would you like a slice?
Heh.
-CW
Michale [81] -
What, exactly, have the Republicans "compromised" on? What have they given ground on, outside of their hostage-taking on Obamacare? Nothing, as far as I can see.
Senate and House Dems tried 18 times in the past year to get House and Senate GOP on board with a conference committee. Every single time, the GOP blocked it. They were terrified of any pratical, workable compromise. And now they're complaining?
Puh-leeeze.
-CW
nypoet22 [90] -
Nice use of "moose poop." Just had to say that.
Heh.
-CW
Except, of course, that that's only six digits. Because this story is false. There's a "1" in there they conveniently forgot about...
Actually, it still is displayed exactly as I posted it. Because there are no letters corresponding with the number 1 on the phone pad..
So it IS 1-800-F UCKYO with a space where the '1' would be..
All partisan BS aside, ya gotta admit.. It's a PR screw-up that far surpasses the Win The Future debacle.. :D
I'll get to the rest later today..
Michale
JL,
re: #20...
Three Points..
1. Human Caused Global Warming (Yet The Planet Is Cooling) modeling has been going on for, what now?? 20 Years???
And in ALL that time, not one single model has been right.. Not one single model has been successful in predicting ANYTHING.. Not one single prediction made by the Human Caused Global Warming (Yet The Planet Is Cooling) religion has EVER BEEN RIGHT.. Some of those predictions have not only failed to come to pass, they have SPECTACULARLY and EPICALLY failed to come to pass..
"Failed! Failed! Impressively failed!"
-NASA Doctor, ARMAGEDDON
2. CO2 emissions have been rising as predicted. Yet there has been absolutely NO measurable or statistically significant rise in temperatures to correspond with that rise in C02... EVERY scientist in the world CANNOT EXPLAIN WHY...
3. I forgot 3, but will remember again, I am sure.. :D
My point is simple.. The "science" has been wrong time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time again..
Yet people STILL believe that Human Caused Global Warming exists..
That's not science.. That's religious style faith, pure and simple...
Do you honestly believe that human kind, which is nothing more than a minute pin-prick on a wart on the butt of the totality that is time, do you honestly believe that we could have ANY effect on a natural process that has existed for billions of years and got along just fine without us????
"That's..... arrogant presumption"
-Captain James T. Kirk, STAR TREK IV, The Voyage Home
To put it in mathematical terms, human kind has been industrial for .00000177% that the earth has existed....
Forget about climate "science", let's just talk common sense...
Do you honestly believe that human kind could have ANY discernible effect on a planet that they have only been industrial for that minute fraction???
To give you an analogy, it would be as if a baby that is 7 seconds old could beat the best chess player or take on the best pro wrestler...
It is a physical and mental impossibility..
As is the idea that humans can actually change the course of climate..
We might as well be able to change the course of this planet's orbit.
It is a physical and mental impossibility..
It's really that simple..
And, for the record, I read your posted article..
It reminded me of bible passages..
"Everything that happens is because of Human Caused Global Warming... If it's too warm, it's because of global warming. If it's too cold, that's because of global warming. If it's too dry, that's because of global warming, if it's too wet, that's because of global warming. It's all the will of global warming"
And you call that science?? :D
Michale
It reminded me of bible passages..
For example.. A decade ago, British "scientists" warned that their children might never ever see snow..
Than 6-7 years later, the UK was hit with massive snowstorms that buried the island...
THEN, the Brit "scientists" said, "oh well all this massive snow ALSO is caused by global warming"...
You see how completely and utterly ridiculous that sounds??
With being wrong time after time after time after time, well, you can readily understand why I am skeptical.
I have no doubt that there is good solid science that supports the Human Caused Global Warming theory.
But what YA'ALL refuse to accept is that there is good solid science that DISPUTES the theory..
We don't know enough to even know what we don't know...
It's really that simple...
Michale
"Everything that happens is because of Human Caused Global Warming... If it's too warm, it's because of global warming. If it's too cold, that's because of global warming. If it's too dry, that's because of global warming, if it's too wet, that's because of global warming. It's all the will of global warming"
your reading comprehension skills leave much to be desired, and each of the myths you cite are addressed in the website using directly observable, factual evidence, here:
http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
the studies the article cites are linked to, and can be read for their methodology and results. energy on the planet is constantly moving around, and most of it is not reflected in surface air temperature. you aren't wrong because of some religious belief, you're wrong because the energies absorbed by the atmosphere, geosphere, hydrosphere, cryosphere and biosphere have all been directly measured and calculated. the overall heat on the planet has continued to increase regardless of seemingly counterintuitive fluctuations in surface air temperature. that part is not conjecture or religion, it's fact.
JL
But what YA'ALL refuse to accept is that there is good solid science that DISPUTES the theory..
that's because I've read it and it's neither good nor solid.
Do you honestly believe that human kind could have ANY discernible effect on a planet that they have only been industrial for that minute fraction???
it does seem fantastical that human beings could have such a big effect, but there it is in black and white. regardless of what we think we're capable of, the factual change has been dramatic.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/326/5958/1394.abstract
read a book!
~handy - 'the tick'