Mississippi's Flag Is Worse
So vexillology is in the news. Vexillology (as fans of The Big Bang Theory should already know) is the study of flags. A spirited debate is taking place about South Carolina's law which dictates that the Confederate battle flag be prominently displayed on the grounds of the statehouse. This flag used to fly over the statehouse dome, but was moved to a Civil War monument the last time this debate raged, as a form of compromise that was deemed politically acceptable at the time.
It's an important debate to have. The state government is honoring a flag which many see as a racist symbol -- one used by those against civil rights since the 1940s (the "Dixiecrat" campaign of Strom Thurmond was the real launching point of the Confederate battle flag into the world of politics). Those against flying the flag, from President Obama on down, are arguing that the flag should be moved "to a museum" instead of flying in a place of honor on the statehouse grounds. The argument is that the flag is so offensive to so many that the state's government should not legitimize it by flying it at the people's statehouse.
I happen to agree with this argument, but I am astonished that those making it are currently giving the state of Mississippi such a pass. Here is the official state flag of Mississippi:
You will immediately note that the Confederate battle flag is incorporated into the state flag's design. Indeed, it's hard to miss. Which is why I am left scratching my head over why very few people in this debate seem to have noticed it.
I do understand that political battles must be fought one at a time, and that the church murders in Charleston is what is driving the debate in South Carolina right now. The spotlight is on South Carolina -- I get that. But how hard is it to add "and Mississippi's state flag" to any statement in this debate?
While the display of the Confederate battle flag on South Carolina's statehouse grounds is indeed offensive to many, at least it is only officially established in this one location. People in South Carolina don't see this image on their driver's licenses, on official state documents, or displayed in their courtrooms. Mississippi's citizens can't make the same claim. The state flag is present in hundreds of places in the state, making it in fact much worse than South Carolina's problem.
All across the South, states have incorporated their rebellious history into their state flags in subtle and not-so-subtle ways (the Washington Post has a good rundown of most of these). Some have elements of the "stars and bars," or the official Confederate flag (the Confederate battle flag was never actually adopted by the Confederate States of America). Some have symbolic representations of their Civil War past. But one flag stands out among all of these, because Mississippi wasn't exactly subtle in incorporating the Confederate battle flag into their state's flag design.
No state flag's design is set in stone. They can be changed. They can be changed to remove offensive symbols. Georgia, in fact, did just that a few years back. Here's what Georgia's state flag used to look like:
In 2001, the flag's design was changed, but much like South Carolina, the effort to reach a politically-acceptable compromise wasn't exactly a winner. The new state flag had a row of tiny images of the "historic" state flags of Georgia on it, including the one with the Confederate battle flag element. So the offending image was shrunk considerably, but it still remained on the state flag. Two years later, Georgia adopted another new flag without this imagery present. The state flag changed (twice, in fact), and life went on.
While the debate over South Carolina's display of the Confederate battle flag is an important one -- it has even become a big subject in the presidential race -- it is not the only debate over vexillology we should now be having. Even if South Carolina agrees to move the flag to a museum, it won't affect their citizens' driver's licenses or courthouses. This is not the case in Mississippi.
If South Carolina can agree to remove the Confederate battle flag from their statehouse grounds, then Mississippi should begin their own debate over the inclusion of this offensive Civil War imagery on their own official state flag. Georgia managed to change its state flag as it entered the twenty-first century. Mississippi should follow the path Georgia took and retire their state flag to a museum as well.
-- Chris Weigant
Cross-posted at The Huffington Post
Follow Chris on Twitter: @ChrisWeigant
I have to concede that my thinking on this issue has evolved..
I still think it's ridiculous for the black community to be so up in arms over this what with the hate and violence etc etc that permeates their own music and culture...
But on the other hand, how would jewish people feel if a Nazi flag was flying over a state capitol??
That's pretty much how I am looking at the issue now..
But I still think that if the black community is so against hate and violence as they claim to be, maybe they should clean up their own house first...
Am I wrong??
Michale
Republicans never miss an opportunity to project. This whole flag discussion was prompted by the white culture of hate and violence. Nine innocent black people were murdered by a white supremacist in a state that flies a white supremacist flag at its capital. Maybe the white community should clean up their own act before deploying their spambots to post ridiculous white supremacist talking points about black people.
This whole flag discussion was prompted by the white culture
Really!??
So, it's WHITE culture that has been prompting all this discussion!!???
What planet do YOU live on??
Maybe the white community should clean up their own act before deploying their spambots to post ridiculous white supremacist talking points about black people.
Apparently, you are not up on current events...
White people ARE cleaning up their own act.. They have been for almost a hundred years.... They even elected a black man as President...
What has the black community done??
Besides being responsible for 96% of black deaths in this country..
Besides having the most vile, disgusting and perverse culture in the form of Hip Hop.....
It's beyond debatable that, in the here and now, whites are bending over backwards to pay for the sins of their fathers...
The problem is that racist provocateurs continue to tell black people that they are STILL being victimized and that black people are owed more and more..
I am also constrained to point out the elephant in the room..
Or in this case, the donkey...
Democrats CREATED the KKK....
Democrats CREATED racism in this country...
So, if you want to look at someone to blame??
Look in a mirror, sonny jim....
Michale
Nine innocent black people were murdered by a white supremacist in a state that flies a white supremacist flag at its capital.
Compare that to upwards of TEN THOUSAND black people killed a year
96% of which are killed by other black people!!!
So, you abhor 9 black people killed by a white racist scumbag...
"I grieve with thee"
-T'Pau
Yet, you completely and utterly ignore the NINE THOUSAND SIX HUNDRED black people killed by other black people...
You are using the deaths of these 9 black people as a political weapon to bludgeon your political enemies over the head with...
That is beneath contemptible...
Michale
Feel free to nit-pick the numbers as a way of conceding you have no logical or rational response...
I'm used to it.. :D
Michale
I'm unconvinced that there will be any change in SC or MS. Republican electoral strategy is to run up the white vote. Removing white supremacist symbols won't help with that. They're more likely to wait for the press to move on and then they'll be back to business as usual.
Michale wrote:
"But I still think that if the black community is so against hate and violence as they claim to be, maybe they should clean up their own house first...
Am I wrong??"
I see where you are coming from, and the point you are trying to make, BUT.....
Isn't that like saying that only people who are perfect in the first place have the right to fight injustice wherever they might find it, instead just limiting the fight to only within themselves?
Why can't imperfect human beings be able to do both at the same time? Strive to better both their own community and make the outside community at large better at the same time? Does not the condition of one affect the other?
Should, for instance, the fact that a someone has a large human failing, philandering, alcoholism, etc. be able to negate or prevent all the other good that they could be recognized for? Think Gandhi, Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights movement, Kennedy and the Cuban Missile Crisis, etc.
It's interesting that Republican white supremacists like to smear the modern Democratic party with their white supremacy. It is true that the Democratic party was part of the white supremacist "heritage", but for some reason, the white supremacists have abandoned that part of their "heritage". It's just a little too black these days for their tastes. It's quite clear why they like that flag and the GOP.
I see where you are coming from, and the point you are trying to make,
Danke...
I am not saying that white on black violence should be ignored...
But neither should it be used as a political weapon while ignoring the much MUCH MUCH bigger cause of black deaths...
Why can't imperfect human beings be able to do both at the same time? Strive to better both their own community and make the outside community at large better at the same time? Does not the condition of one affect the other?
But that is exactly my point.. The black community is NOT "doing both at the same time"...
They are ignoring the black on black violence utterly and completely....
It's like that whole killer cop bullshit...
Cops are responsible for .08% of black deaths... Taking my 10K figure because it's an easy number to work with, that means that cops were responsible for 800 black deaths...
Yet, BLACKS are responsible for 9,600 black deaths!!
So just on an IMPORTANCE scale, what's more important..
Saving 800 lives??
Or saving 9600 lives??
Yes, they both are important.. Yet, all we hear from BlackLivesMatter is when a white person kills a black person....
Given all these facts leads to one inescapable conclusion..
Black lives only "matter" when they can be used as a political bludgeon to beat people over the head with...
If their deaths CAN'T be used as a political tool, then people like JFC et al ignore those black lives...
And that is shitty... Pure and simple...
If the Left wants Americans to stand up and feel grief when a miniscule amount of death happens at the hands of white people....
Maybe the Left can show the rest of us how it's done, when black people die at the hands of black people..
Gods know the Left would have PLENTY of opportunity for such a teaching moment..
But the Left won't do that because there is nothing in it, political speaking, for them...
Hence, black lives DON'T matter when they are killed by other blacks...
This is what the facts show...
Michale
It is true that the Democratic party was part of the white supremacist "heritage",
BBWWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
THAT is hilarious, my friend!!!
When ya'all talk about Republicans, it's always about hate and violence..
But when you talk about the exact same thing in the context of Democrats, all of the sudden, it becomes "heritage"... :D
Thanx for the laugh, JFC.. I really needed that....
But the facts are the facts...
Democrats created the KKK....
Democrats are responsible for all the racism in this country...
"These are the facts.. And they are undisputed."
Michale
Michale wrote:
"Democrats CREATED the KKK....
Democrats CREATED racism in this country..."
That is so ridiculous! Who is painting with a broad brush now? Not all Democrats are responsible for creating those things. If a Liberal were to say something like that about Republicans, you would be all over it, like a Ferengi on a gold plated latinum sucker!
In fact, you just were....
"It's beyond debatable that, in the here and now, whites are bending over backwards to pay for the sins of their fathers..."
That sounds suspiciously like someone trying to make a defense against something that strikes a little too close to home for comfort to begin with.
"What has the black community done??
Besides being responsible for 96% of black deaths in this country.."
AND, according to the U.S. Justice Department, 84 percent of white people each year are killed by other white people!
So, how does pointing either of those things out change the fact that most of the cross racial violence in this country is done by white people against black people, and not black people against white people? That is the original complaint the black community has about racism coming from the white community that needs to be dealt with before we can move on.
John M,
Let me put it to you in another way...
Chicago has a Charleston Church Shooting **EVERY WEEK***!!!
Sometimes even in a single day or a couple of days!!
Where's the #BlackLivesMatter hastag then???
Where is the outrage?? Where is the media??
WHERE ARE THE DEMOCRATS!!!!!!!?????????
That is why I can't take this issue seriously when it comes from the Left...
Because the facts clearly show that the Left is just milking the tragedy to score political points....
Black lives DON'T matter to Democrats unless they can use it for political fodder...
Michale
That is so ridiculous! Who is painting with a broad brush now? Not all Democrats are responsible for creating those things.
We're talking "collective guilt" remember??
The Democrat Party created the KKK....
Ergo, using the Left's "collective guilt" reasoning, the Democrat Party shares the majority of that guilt...
AND, according to the U.S. Justice Department, 84 percent of white people each year are killed by other white people!
As soon as you can show me a white community created hashtag that is a nationwide phenomena you will have a point..
But not until then...
So, how does pointing either of those things out change the fact that most of the cross racial violence in this country is done by white people against black people, and not black people against white people?
The number of whites killed by blacks far far FAR exceeds the number of blacks killed by whites..
But, once again, you prove my point..
Black lives only matter when they are killed by white people..
The point isn't the stats or the numbers or any of that..
The POINT is the reaction from the black community and the Left in general...
If a white person kills a black person, the reaction from the Left is hysterical city...
If a black person kills a black person, the reaction from the Left is cricket city...
Now, I ask you...
Isn't that totally bogus??
Michale
As soon as you can show me a white community created hashtag that is a nationwide phenomena you will have a point..
Do you recall the university professor who responded to the #BlackLivesMatter hastag with her own #ALLLivesMatter tag??
She was attacked and vilified and threatened... BY THE BLACK COMMUNITY...
And THIS is the community that you say I should sympathize with because a handful of blacks are killed by whites??
Michale
Michale,
Let me put it to you in another way...
Where indeed is the outrage about the epidemic of gun violence in this country???
WHERE ARE THE REPUBLICANS????
I am, in fact, pleased that we can both agree on the terrible tragedy of the appalling toll we take on human life in this nation.
Surely you have not missed the point where Liberals and Democrats have offered one possible solution in the form of more gun control laws over the years??? What has been the Republican response except to throw more guns after more guns into the mix???
Michale wrote:
"The number of whites killed by blacks far far FAR exceeds the number of blacks killed by whites.."
Really?
When was the last time you heard of a white person who was killed by a black mob?
When was the last time you heard of a white man who was strung up and lynched in a tree by a group of black men?
When was the last time you heard of a group of white people who were shot and killed by a black gunman spouting racial hatred?
When was the last time you heard of a black supremacist movement marching through town? The KKK, the Neo Nazi skinheads, etc. do it all the time. When was the last time the Black Panthers held a march?
That's not a solution as I have aptly proven...
ANY gun laws desired by the Gun Control Fanatics would not have stopped the SC Church Shooting..
Would not have stopped Columbine..
Would not have stopped Sandy Hook...
Would not have stopped the Aurora Theater Shooting..
Laws were already on the books to address those issues..
Those laws were ignored...
How ANYONE can make the case for more laws being the solution is mind-boggling...
The ONLY way you might have a chance for a new law to "fix" the problem would be a complete and guaranteed BAN on all firearms..
But even BASHI (who goes out of his way NEVER to agree with me on ANYTHING :D) agrees that a complete gun ban will NEVER happen in this country...
What has been the Republican response except to throw more guns after more guns into the mix???
If there had been an off-duty cop in that church, there would have been no massacre..
Therefore, ANOTHER gun WOULD be the solution..
That's the point you don't get..
Hundreds, if not THOUSANDS of lives have been saved by a person with a gun and the training to use it...
These are the facts...
Having said all that, we're not talking about guns right now.. We're talking about racist flags..
And yea, I would agree with you.. The Republicans aren't much better in this area than Democrats...
The Democrat Party created this problem... They should be held responsible for it...
Michale
When was the last time you heard of a white person who was killed by a black mob?
I could give you a list, but CW has a link limit. :D
Off the top of my head, there were a couple dozen mob attacks against whites during the Zimmerman trial...
. When was the last time the Black Panthers held a march?
Dunno... The Leftist Liberal MSM doesn't cover the Black Panthers if it's detrimental.....
:D
Michale
As I said above, my point isn't the numbers or statistics or anything..
My point is the reaction from the Left in the two instances..
You simply CANNOT deny that black on black violence and murder is ignored by the Left...
It's blatant partisan-based hypocrisy...
THAT is my point and it is simply inarguable...
Michale
Michale wrote:
"You simply CANNOT deny that black on black violence and murder is ignored by the Left...
It's blatant partisan-based hypocrisy...
THAT is my point and it is simply inarguable..."
No Michale. My point is that it is ignored by the WHOLE white community at large. By conservative right wing Republicans too. Except when they LIKE to make a point of black on black violence for their own blatant partisan-based hypocrisy...
I am sure you would agree that that is simply inarguable also!!!
Having said all that, we're not talking about guns right now.. We're talking about racist flags..
If you want to get into the gun debate with me, we can do that in the last FTP :D
Michale
No Michale. My point is that it is ignored by the WHOLE white community at large. By conservative right wing Republicans too. Except when they LIKE to make a point of black on black violence for their own blatant partisan-based hypocrisy...
I am sure you would agree that that is simply inarguable also!!!
OK, so we have two points here...
I completely agree that Right Wing Republicans are ALSO hypocrites in this issue...
So, we are in agreement on both points??
Michale
JM,
Forget politics.. Forget Democrat/Republican.. Forget anything but logic and objectivity....
If the black community were to eliminate **ALL** white on black violence, they would save a few hundred lives a year...
If the black community were to get their own house in order, eliminate **ALL** black on black violence, they would save THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of lives a year...
Now, just from a logic perspective....
Which makes more sense???
Michale
... maybe they should clean up their own house first...
That's a curious way of thinking about it.
Maybe what is needed here is a recognition that there is only one house and you're all in it together.
I think that would be a good start.
Maybe what is needed here is a recognition that there is only one house and you're all in it together.
It takes two to tango...
And, unfortunately, the Democrats have succeeded in increasing the racial divide far FAR further than any hope of bridging it...
I think that would be a good start.
It would be an awesome start...
But too many people have too much invested in the racial divide... Bridging the divide would put race hucksters and con men like Al Sharpton and Ben Crump out on the street...
Michale
But too many people have too much invested in the racial divide...
Well, I was quoting you, Michale. Do you see race relations as an American problem?
Well, I was quoting you, Michale. Do you see race relations as an American problem?
Absolutely...
With a couple exceptions, EVERY country on the planet has made slaves of one class of citizens in it's history..
Yet, it's only in the US that we have this "owed" mentality amongst the class of people...
NO ONE alive today has absolutely NOTHING to do with slavery...
No black person alive today has been a slave.....
I understand the concept of "collective guilt" and "sins of our fathers", etc etc....
But if the Left REALLY wants to embrace the guilt/sins notion, then they need to acknowledge that it was DEMOCRATS who created the KKK... It was DEMOCRATS who created the problem...
In essence, the Left today is blaming the Right for the sins of the LEFT'S fathers...
Where is the logic in that???
In our lifetimes, yours and mine, we have witnessed the end of institutionalized racism... You would think that the black community would be ecstatic at that..
But no... NOW the enemy is individual racism, which comes perilously close to "thought crime"...
And, if individual racism is stamped out, will the black community be happy???
Or will the take the next logical step and insist that white people become the slaves and black people become the plantation owners??
It all boils down to a simple concept..
If one wants respect, one should be respectful..
If one wants tolerance, one should be tolerant...
Michale
Have you been paying any attention at all to what has been happening in SC since the white supremacist terrorist shot nine members of the black community in their church in terms of the reaction to this massacre?
If you have, then I'm not sure how you can ask those questions.
I got a great idea..
Let's purge the Confederate flag AND HipHop music from our society!!
WHO'S WITH ME!!!?????
:D
Michale
Have you been paying any attention at all to what has been happening in SC since the white supremacist terrorist shot nine members of the black community in their church in terms of the reaction to this massacre?
A SC church shooting happens every week in Chicago.. The week before the SC church shooting, FIFTEEN black people were gunned down..
Where's the MSM barrage about that??
Where's the anguish and the horror from the Left about that??
Why is it we only hear about black deaths when they can be used to further a political agenda??
The point is, the Left wants to only address the deaths that serve their political agenda...
If #BlackLivesMatter was truly the intent, then the logical course of action would be to address the issues that take the most lives...
NOT the issue that serves a political agenda..
THAT is why I can't work up the "outrage".... Because it's all just partisan politics...
Michale
Actual slavery is worse. Why are we talking about these symbols of past slavery, when there's actual slavery going on in cocoa production in Ivory Coast?
Global warming is worse. Why are we talking about these ongoing injustices, when the planet is in unprecedented peril.
No it isn't. Slavery is an qualitatively worse. Global warming is bad, but slavery is evil.'
And so on, round and round, to no effect.
The right response to "Should South Carolina take down the Confederate battle flag?" is "Yes. Of course they should." Only after that has had a moment to sink in, should the respondent talk about any broader category of reprehensible displays or institutions that need to be changed.
Do you want me to list the white deaths, gruesome deaths, perverse deaths that occurred at the hands of black people??
I can list hundreds of cases... All ignored by the Left and the Leftist MSM...
Once again...
Selective Outrage...
Outrage based on political ideology...
Michale
The right response to "Should South Carolina take down the Confederate battle flag?" is "Yes. Of course they should."
The right response to "Should the black community eliminate the violence of the hip hop music culture?" is "Yes. Of course they should."
Once again...
Selective outrage...
THIS (9 black people dying at the hands of racist scumbag) is abhorrently evil and bad...
THAT (black people dying by the thousands at the hands of other black people) is not anything that we need to address...
We're not talking global warming vs racism...
We're talking black people being brutally killed vs black people being brutally killed...
One aspect kills a few hundred black people a year...
The OTHER aspect kills THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of black people a year...
"So, let's just address the one that serves our political agenda..."
-The Left
Michale
Besides, I already found the solution in comment #29...
White culture will get rid of the violent and hate filled symbol that is the Confederate flag...
Black culture will get rid of the violent and hate filled symbol that is Hip Hop music....
The perfect solution....
Michale
The argument is that the flag is so offensive to so many that the state's government should not legitimize it by flying it at the people's statehouse.
If so, then they're wrong. Offensiveness doesn't matter. If offensiveness were the problem with the Confederate flag, the correct answer would be "grow a thicker skin".
The rantings of the New Atheist windbags are offensive. Calling the Democratic party "the Democrat party" as a gesture of disrespect is offensive. Portraying George W. Bush as a chimp is offensive. A picture of the Prophet Mohamed having sex is offensive. "Your momma" jokes are offensive.
Displaying the Confederate flag is in a different category. It's evil. It constitutes advocacy in favor of pervasive injustice and countless atrocities, past present and future.
The rantings of the New Atheist windbags are offensive. Calling the Democratic party "the Democrat party" as a gesture of disrespect is offensive.
"I just want some who will lie to me and tell me what I want to here so he can get into my pants.."
"That would be me...."
-BEDAZZLED
:D
Displaying the Confederate flag is in a different category. It's evil. It constitutes advocacy in favor of pervasive injustice and countless atrocities, past present and future.
In your opinion...
I am sure that there are many Vietnamese who would have the same opinion about US Unit Battle Flags as well...
Michale
Much as the Left would like to pretend otherwise, there was more to the Confederacy than just racism..
Just like, much as I hate to admit it, there is more to Hamas than just terrorism...
Unfortunately (or fortunately... Depends on your perspective) the scumbags and the depraved give the rest a bad name..
There are many things about the Confederacy that the Left should celebrate..
They were Democrats after all.... :D
Michale
If one wants respect, one should be respectful..If one wants tolerance, one should be tolerant...
In this regard, so many people of Charleston and South Carolina are a shining example for their fellow Americans and, indeed, for all the world.
In this regard, so many people of Charleston and South Carolina are a shining example for their fellow Americans and, indeed, for all the world.
Completely, unequivocally and 1000% agree...
It's just a pity that we can't have this kind of example without mass casualties...
We're all Americans and are in this together...
It's a completely shame that we can't realize that...
Michale
Maybe this is a new beginning toward that end ...
Compare that to upwards of TEN THOUSAND black people killed a year
96% of which are killed by other black people!!!
Hate to inject some actual facts in to your hysteria but:
The homicide rate in this country is around 10,000 total per year...
Black deaths are at about 2,500. White about 3,000.
90% of black homicides are by a black perpetrator.
Whites kill blacks around twice as often as blacks kill whites.
At least according to FBI statistics for 2013...
Maybe this is a new beginning toward that end ...
Possible...
But we have to get rid of a LOT of baggage before any beginning has a chance in hell of becoming the desired end...
Michale
Hate to inject some actual facts in to your hysteria but:
The last reliable numbers were from 2007 which approached the 10k mark I quoted
As I said, you can nitpick the numbers all you want...
But that doesn't change what the numbers show...
Black people kill thousands of more black people than white people kill black people...
Michale
Whites kill blacks around twice as often as blacks kill whites.
One of us is reading the table backwards. It looks to me as though the 409 is white victim black perp, and the 189 is black victim white perp. https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls
The last reliable numbers were from 2007 which approached the 10k mark I quoted
Bullshit. Prove it!
(I have the 2007 FBI homicide statistics in front of me...)
One of us is reading the table backwards. It looks to me as though the 409 is white victim black perp, and the 189 is black victim white perp.
Looks like I read it wrong...
Like I said above....
I knew ya'all would nit pick the exact numbers..
That simply illustrates that you don't have an argument for what the numbers actually mean...
In other words, ya'all are arguing what the definition of "is" is....
Typical....
Michale
M-
"Let's purge the Confederate flag AND HipHop music from our society!!
The National Discussion is not about "purging the Confederate flag from society" anymore than it is about "removing the hip hop lyrics flying from a pole on SC state capitol grounds."
The Onion parodied nonsensical,rhetorical equivalencies like yours in a recent mock article detailing the anguish Germans feel about Jewish desecration of their Waffen SS Cemeteries.
http://www.theonion.com/article/nazi-ss-cemetery-desecrated-by-pro-semitic-graffit-520
A Chinese newspaper is bound to reprint this as genuine news.
Confederate Flags will continue to fly above mobile homes as surely as white kids will continue to listen to rap music.
The National Discussion is not about "purging the Confederate flag from society"
The hell it ain't!
Confederate Flags will continue to fly above mobile homes as surely as white kids will continue to listen to rap music.
Exactly..
Until the black community is ready and willing to clean their own house of hate and violence, they have absolutely no moral foundation from which to pontificate from...
Michale
The Onion parodied nonsensical,rhetorical equivalencies like yours in a recent mock article detailing the anguish Germans feel about Jewish desecration of their Waffen SS Cemeteries.
So, you think the violence and women beating and cop-killings of Hip Hop music is NOTHING compared to the racism of whites??
Uhhhh OK... I respect your opinion....
Sorta....
Michale
Michale [36] -
Just a footnote. There's a big Vietnamese population in a nearby city to me (San Jose). They do fight over flags, but their fight is between the old Vietname flag versus the new communist one. I can dig up articles if you're interested, or just search the San Jose Mercury News site for "Viet" and "flag"...
As for your other arguments:
"One death is a tragedy. A million deaths is a statistic."
-Joseph Stalin
Somehow that seems relevant to what you're trying to say.
-CW
CW,
It IS relevant to what I want to say..
I am just not sure that the Left in general, hysterical or otherwise, wants to be pegged dead on ballz accurate by a Stalin quote...
I could be wrong.. :D
Michale
Michale -
Also, for your "Democrats caused it" argument -- weren't you just making the flip side of this argument a few days ago? I seem to recall your saying "it hasn't happened in 50 years" to dismiss an argument line you didn't like.
So... "Democrats haven't been the party of racism for 50 years!"
Your "Dems caused it" argument absolutely ignores everything that has happened since LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act in 1965 (4?). He said (according to some) as he signed it: "Democrats have lost the South for a generation." He was too optimistic. Dems lost the South for 50 years, at the very least.
Look at the list of GOPers who used to be Southern Democrats if you don't believe me (start with Rick Perry).
Sure, there were racists who stuck with the Dem party for a long time (cue: mention of Sen. Byrd/KKK). But they've all either died out or switched parties.
You say "Dems started it" and you think you're making a point. But the counter to the argument is really: "Yeah, Dems started it, and Lincoln was a Republican. Fair enough. But Dems woke up and realized that racism wasn't a winning issue for the party in the future, and they CHANGED THEIR WAYS. The racists began abandoning them, starting with Strom Thurmond and the Dixiecrats in 1948, after Truman integrated the military and pushed for a federal anti-lynching law. One party drove the racists away. The other party welcomed them in. So whose problem is it today?"
-CW
Michale [51] -
Yeah, but you've got to keep in mind the context -- Stalin was arguing that he could indeed kill millions and the world would not really care. It was a boast, in other words, kind of "you can't touch me!"
-CW
Michale -
I brough the quote up because it's always been relevant to me. Tens of thousands are killed on highways each year -- some years, more than died in Vietnam, if memory serves. But they're just "statistics" unless you know one of them.
-CW
Michale -
Almost forgot. I do have to credit you for your first comment [1]. The Nazi flag analogy is indeed exactly how black people see that flag being flown on state buildings or property.
As Nikki Haley said, nobody's talking about banning the flag (as Germany did with the swastika), or forcing anyone to take it down from their own home or pickup truck. The whole argument is about the stamp of official governmental approval.
The fascinating thing to me is that we just had a relevant Supreme Court case right before all this exploded in SC.
-CW
CW,
Also, for your "Democrats caused it" argument -- weren't you just making the flip side of this argument a few days ago? I seem to recall your saying "it hasn't happened in 50 years" to dismiss an argument line you didn't like.
I have been waiting for someone to follow up on that... :D
It goes back to the collective guilt argument that comes from the Left..
To whit... All Americans share the guilt of slavery...
If that is the case, then surely the Democrat Party, who IS the Party of the KKK has MORE of that guilt...
No???
Almost forgot. I do have to credit you for your first comment [1]. The Nazi flag analogy is indeed exactly how black people see that flag being flown on state buildings or property.
That's the only argument I can think of that would sway my thinking...
Michale
To whit... All Americans share the guilt of slavery...
If that is the case, then surely the Democrat Party, who IS the Party of the KKK has MORE of that guilt...
Maybe it's the "Misery Loves Company" argument..
Democrats started the whole slavery/racist/KKK debacle...
Maybe they want to drag everyone else into it to mitigate their guilt..
Who knows...
This whole "collective guilt" thing is a big steamy pile of felgercarp to begin with...
Michale
No one should fly a Confederate flag, even on their own privately-owned flagpole on their own land.
No one should infringe anyone else's right to fly a Confederate flag, under any circumstances in which it's their own expression. (That includes displaying it on the bumper of their personal vehicle. That does not include displaying it on a government building.)
Freedom of speech necessarily includes the freedom to say evil things.
Michale,
What does collective guilt have to do with doing the right thing?
Michale,
That's the only argument I can think of that would sway my thinking...
You still think the confederate flag should be flown on state building or property? I thought that your thinking on this might have been swayed by now ...
is it me or does it seem strange that some idiot shoots up an unarmed group of churchgoers and the lesson learned is that the state flag is offensive? don't get me wrong, the state flag is offensive, but it shows how cowed the media and politicians are by the n.r.a. that only a couple of democratic politicians (and absolutely no republicans) mention gun control!
jhentai2 -
First off, welcome to the site!
Your first comment was held for moderation, but from now on you'll be able to post comments and have them appear instantly.
Just don't post more than one link per comment, as that will cause the filter to hold it for moderation (which can sometimes take a while).
Again, welcome to the site.
As for your comment, yeah, it's always a bit strange what causes what issue to suddenly become radioactive on the political stage. People can fight for a cause for decades and get very little traction, and then all of a sudden the brightest spotlight imaginable appears on what they're trying to achieve.
As for gun control, I think the conventional wisdom on this one is right -- if it didn't happen after Sandy Hook, it's not going to happen for a long time (and many future tragedies) to come.
-CW
jhentai2,
is it me or does it seem strange that some idiot shoots up an unarmed group of churchgoers and the lesson learned is that the state flag is offensive? ... it shows how cowed the media and politicians are by the n.r.a. that only a couple of democratic politicians (and absolutely no republicans) mention gun control!
First off, welcome to the site.
Secondly, I don't find this strange at all. In fact, that the confederate flag has become the central issue in all of this is right and makes perfect sense to me, as my earlier comment here might have made clear.
This is not just or even primarily about gun violence. The method of killing here is hardly the central issue. The confederate flag and what it represents and how it has been used through history and in the massacre at the Mother Emanuel AME church is the overarching issue here.
I think this is the wrong case to make the point that the media and pols are cowed, as you put it, by the NRA.
The white supremacist terrorist went on a rampage with the intent of starting a race war. That cannot be ignored and this cannot be seen only or even largely in terms of what can be done to control and regulate the possession of guns.
jhentai2,
is it me or does it seem strange that some idiot shoots up an unarmed group of churchgoers and the lesson learned is that the state flag is offensive? ... it shows how cowed the media and politicians are by the n.r.a. that only a couple of democratic politicians (and absolutely no republicans) mention gun control!
First off, welcome to the site.
Secondly, I don't find this strange at all. In fact, that the confederate flag has become the central issue in all of this is right and makes perfect sense to me, as my earlier comment here might have made clear.
This is not just or even primarily about gun violence. The method of killing here is hardly the central issue. The confederate flag and what it represents and how it has been used through history and in the massacre at the Mother Emanuel AME church is the overarching issue here.
I think this is the wrong case to make the point that the media and pols are cowed, as you put it, by the NRA.
The white supremacist terrorist went on a rampage with the intent of starting a race war. That cannot be ignored and this cannot be seen only or even largely in terms of what can be done to control and regulate the possession of guns.
"and absolutely no republicans mention gun control!"
Actually, the always tasteless Terd Cruz did. While campaigning on Friday, he said: You know the great thing about the state of Iowa is, I'm pretty sure you all define gun control the same way we do in Texas -- hitting what you aim at.
Heh.
M- 48,49 see CW 55, 2nd paragraph, stamp of government approval for one group's identity icons. The icons are constitutionally protected, state approval of these icons is, for practical purposes, a legislative choice. The times appear to be a changing, maybe, that is all. The cultural values stuff, "what hangs on my garage wall" gets sorted out independently from the "what knick-knacks grace our capital grounds" stuff.
OK, I think we all need a little bit of a laugh break...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/compost/wp/2015/06/23/every-state-flag-is-wrong-and-here-is-why/
Something we can all agree on: Maryland's state flag is the best of the bunch. Sure, it's aristocratic (combination of the coats of arms of the Calverts and Baltimores), but still, one damn fine looking flag!
[stands back from the fray... heh]
Worst is California, for totally screwing up the design, ordered by two guys named Bartlett and Bosc, who gave the artist the instruction to add a pear to the flag (google both "bartlett" and "bosc" to see why), but the artist read it as "bear."
Heh. Again, standing back from the inevitable fray...
:-)
-CW
I also have to admit, ever since I learned it from Sheldon on TBBT and from Jeopardy!, "vexillology" is a cool word to use...
:-)
Never thought I'd work it into a column, though...
-CW
chris and elizabeth, thanks for the welcome!
Liz,
What does collective guilt have to do with doing the right thing?
Because collective guilt is the argument the Left uses to FORCE people to believe it's the right thing..
You still think the confederate flag should be flown on state building or property? I thought that your thinking on this might have been swayed by now ...
I don't... And it has... :D
Michale
is it me or does it seem strange that some idiot shoots up an unarmed group of churchgoers and the lesson learned is that the state flag is offensive?
I know, right!??
Oh...
"Welcome to the party, pal!"
-John McClane, DIE HARD
:D
Michale
The white supremacist terrorist went on a rampage with the intent of starting a race war. That cannot be ignored
Sure it can..
Eric Rudolph did what he did to start a religious war...
Timothy McVeigh also had some buga-boo up his ass about something and the OK City bombing was supposed to ignite something or a rather...
Some nutball in Santa Barbara ALSO wrote a manifesto to explain his shooting rampage. I forgot what it was but that's kind of my point..
The fact that this scumbag little coward WANTED to start a race war is completely and utterly irrelevant..
Believing that it actually means something gives this little turd WAY too much power..
This asshole wanted immortality...
Why is the Left so intent on giving it to him??
It's just going to give more incentive to the next crazy psycho searching for immortality...
Michale
As for gun control, I think the conventional wisdom on this one is right -- if it didn't happen after Sandy Hook, it's not going to happen for a long time (and many future tragedies) to come.
And that is a good thing..
Doing the wrong thing for the wrong reasons never ends well..
I'll end with the point that not one single person has been able to address or refute..
Any gun laws that the hysterical anti-gun nuts have proposed would not have stopped Sandy Hook...
Would not have stopped the SC Church shooting...
Would not have stopped the Aurora theater shooting...
Would have stopped the Columbine shooting...
Since NO law proposed would have prevented the massacres that prompted their discussions, there is only one logical question..
WHY are they even being discussed???
Michale
Would not have stopped the SC Church shooting...
Would not have stopped the Aurora theater shooting...
Would have stopped the Columbine shooting...
Would NOT have stopped the Columbine shooting...
I hate when a typo interrupts an awesome and dramatic talking point. :^/ heh
Michale
Something we can all agree on: Maryland's state flag is the best of the bunch. Sure, it's aristocratic (combination of the coats of arms of the Calverts and Baltimores), but still, one damn fine looking flag!
Yea, but I bet it would mess with yer brain if yer trippin' on acid! :D
Michale
No one should infringe anyone else's right to fly a Confederate flag, under any circumstances in which it's their own expression.
And yet, I can cite you many examples of school officials doing that exact thing....
Michale
Believing that it actually means something gives this little turd WAY too much power..
You missed my point, Michale ... naturally. :)
Do ya'all realize how much of this nation is wrapped up in the Confederacy??
Fort Bragg
Fort Rucker
Fort Hood
Fort Lee
Fort Benning
Fort Gordon
Fort A.P. Hill
Fort Polk
Fort Pickett
Camp Beauregard
All military installations named for Confederate generals...
Like it or not, the Confederacy existed...
Wiping out all traces of it's existence won't change that...
Political Correctness run amok... Which is Political Correctness' normal state of existence, it seems..
Michale
You missed my point, Michale ... naturally. :)
I don't think I did..
You were advocating that we take this scumbags actions seriously as if they could actually start a race war...
The guy is a psychopathic turd-brained moron.. Taking ANY of his rantings seriously, even though they correspond with a Leftist agenda is simply giving power to the psychos and giving other psychos a reason to go for THEIR 15 mins of fame...
I mean, honestly. With ALL that is going on in this country, do we really need ANOTHER bogus reason to push racist tendencies to the front of the line??
Ask yourself one question..
Do you HONESTLY believe that the thoughts and attitudes of this idjut are representative of Americans as a whole???
Michale
Michale,
You missed my point because you don't understand my point. I really hate when that happens. :)
As for your last ridiculous question ... you don't know me if you have to ask. :(
Geez, and I even made the point twice!
As for your last ridiculous question ... you don't know me if you have to ask. :(
Fair enough.. So I am guessing you agree that racist tendencies such as these that rise to this level of violence are a miniscule part of the fabric of America...
Good guess???
Michale
Like it or not, the Confederacy existed...
Wiping out all traces of it's existence won't change that...
"Those who forget the past are doomed to relive it..."
Michale
For those of you who want to slam Southern Heritage and Confederate Heritage...
Just keep in mind one thing..
It's also DEMOCRAT Heritage....
You can't separate the two, much as ya'all would like to...
Michale
“I would really like to like Nikki Haley since she is a Republican. On the other hand, she is an immigrant and does not understand America’s history.” - Ann "Storm Front" Coulter on the Fox Business (as usual) Channel
LOL! I think maybe Nimrata Nikki Randhawa Haley is more like an anchor baby (US citizen) than one of those nitwit immigrants who can't understand the controversy surrounding owning other human beings.
Ya'all DO realize that there are many Confederate Memorials all over the South and even in the North..
Are they all offensive??
Do they all have to go???
Michale
Do they all have to go???
But more importantly, can I watch The Dukes of Hazzard without guilt? Or at least without that kind of guilt?
But more importantly, can I watch The Dukes of Hazzard without guilt? Or at least without that kind of guilt?
heh.... :D Good one...
Michale
BashiBazouk -
The Dukes of Hazzard actors are in a TV commercial that's showing now. But I thought I heard that the General Lee had been repainted -- no Confederate flag on the roof anymore in the ad. So maybe even they've moved on...
-CW
I guess the Jefferson Memorial must be torn down as it's a "symbol of hate."
Can't ya'all fathom how ridiculous this all is???
Like it or not, our history is entwined with slavery.. Getting rid of reminders won't change that..
I mean, honestly.. If the Left REALLY wants to get rid of all reminders of hatred and slavery, the Democrat Party should be the FIRST thing to go....
Michale
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
-C.S. Lewis
I'm just sayin'....
Michale
Speaking of Hate and Violence...
'FINISH THE MISSION, KILL SLAVE MASTERS'
Fringe black leaders get racial, threatening, violent
http://www.wnd.com/2015/06/finish-the-mission-kill-slave-masters/
Yea... It's only WHITE people that are full of hatred and violence... :^/
Michale
The Dukes of Hazzard actors are in a TV commercial that's showing now. But I thought I heard that the General Lee had been repainted -- no Confederate flag on the roof anymore in the ad. So maybe even they've moved on...
Nope.. According to Wiki, they just didn't show the roof of the General Lee...
http://www.everythingdodge.com/blog/autotrader-commercial-featuring-the-dukes-of-hazzards
Michale
It's rather funny when ya look at it..
The Left goes on and on about "tolerance" and "bigotry"..
Yet, with their war on Southern Heritage, it's THE LEFT who is showing intolerance and bigotry...
Funny, iddn't it? :D
Michale
We just have irony heaped upon irony on this issue..
Democrats fancy themselves as the heroes of the downtrodden... The fighters for those who can't fight for themselves.. The champions of those preyed on by the big powers..
Yet, that is exactly what Bo and Luke Duke represent... That is EXACTLY what Bo and Luke Duke did..
And yet, now Democrats would just label them as racist hate-mongers and throw them on the trash heap of cinematic history..
The hypocrisy is so glaring, it's blinding...
Michale
And the hits just keep on coming..
Hillary Clinton is coming to speak at the Democratic Party of Virginia's Jefferson-Jackson Event! We are taking this opportunity to talk to the hundreds of people who will attend and sign them up as Hillary supporters. Many volunteers will be needed, primarily before the event; you can volunteer AND see Hillary!
-Hillary Clinton Website Post
Hmmm... Thomas Jefferson... Andrew Jackson...
Thomas Jefferson owned over 600 slaves..
Andrew Jackson accrued his massive wealth directly due to slave labor..
And Hillary Clinton is speaking at an event that bears their name..
Irony upon irony upon irony...
Michale
All-
Will future reruns of the Dukes of Hazard pixelate the battle flag on the top of the General "what's his name" car?
Will future reruns of the Dukes of Hazard pixelate the battle flag on the top of the General "what's his name" car?
Probably...
Go try and buy a copy of SONG OF THE SOUTH movie...
Political Correctness run amok...
If the Hysterical Left *REALLY* wants to get rid of all vestiges of the racism and slavery of our past, the Democrat Party should be the FIRST thing to go....
Michale