Hillary And Bernie
The Democratic presidential field is shaping up into a one-on-one contest, at least at this early stage of the race. While Jim Webb, Martin O'Malley, and Lincoln Chafee are all now official candidates, none of them has managed to either distinguish themselves much or garner much of any voter support. Which leaves Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders as the only two candidates capable of pulling in double-digit polling numbers among Democratic voters. Well, to be absolutely accurate, there are three Democrats who routinely manage this feat, but so far Joe Biden hasn't indicated whether he'll run or not. For now, it's Hillary versus Bernie, and the next few weeks could considerably sharpen up this contest.
I say this for two reasons. The first is that Hillary Clinton seems ready to come out of her shell. She's about to do her first interview with the national media, having previously only given local media interviews. More importantly, perhaps, she's also about to get a lot more specific about her economic agenda. More on this in a moment. The second reason I'll be closely watching the next few weeks is that Bernie Sanders is finally getting some media attention of his own. They can't ignore him any more, since he is pulling in the biggest crowds of any candidate running (from either party). Something is quite obviously happening out there, and some in the media are beginning to actually admit this fact (albeit reluctantly, and often dismissively).
Let's take Sanders first. In just about every presidential election cycle, the media anoint at least one Democratic candidate to be ridiculed as being some sort of extremist. "Oh, look at the crazy Lefty!" the media will condescendingly say, followed by some version of: "Isn't he adorable?" Part of this is what might be called the Very Serious People Club in Washington, which counts as its members pretty much all of the politicians who accept massive amounts of corporate donations, as well as deep political thinkers like television anchormen (yes, that was sarcasm). Anyone espousing even mild anti-corporate views is blackballed from this club, of course.
In years past, the role of "amusing Lefty with no chance" was assigned (by the "we go to the right cocktail parties" crowd in D.C.) to Howard Dean, John Edwards, and Dennis Kucinich. Think it's a coincidence that you can't read a mainstream media article about Bernie Sanders without some snarky comment about his hair? This is nothing more than playground taunting, as evidenced by the fact that they'd be making just as much fun of Sanders even if his hair was perfect. Remember what they said about how John Edwards spent too much money on his haircuts? It doesn't really matter, good or bad they'll find something superficial to use as a focus for their ridicule. Of course, I should point out that this isn't limited to just Lefty candidates, the media will also routinely do this sort of thing to frontrunners (think: Hillary, pantsuits).
I see Bernie's hair as being significant for a different reason, personally. Because by focusing on Bernie's hair the media are really admitting (without even realizing it) that Bernie isn't all that charismatic a person. Perhaps I should use the word photogenic instead. Sanders definitely does not look like someone Central Casting decided "looked like presidents should look." Mitt Romney was probably the best example of what I'm talking about, although there certainly are others. By explicitly pointing out how different Bernie looks from this image, the media are really admitting that there's got to be something else about the man to draw such large and enthusiastic crowds.
I keep hearing the phrase "Bernie's the real deal" coming from Democrats these days. Sanders doesn't just talk the talk, he has also walked the walk -- for decades. He authentically believes in pretty much everything he says. Most of what he says reflects positions he's held for a very long time. And the key point the media is so far still mostly missing is that Bernie's issues are what is causing his surge in popularity. People like Bernie not because he has perfect hair but because of what he believes and what people think he'll fight for as president. Most of Bernie's issues poll incredibly well among Democrats and even admirably well with the public at large.
Now, at this point, some would make the comparison with Hillary Clinton. Clinton has so far not been very specific on economic issues, with the exception of pay equality for women and raising the minimum wage (although even there she's not yet matching Bernie's call for $15 an hour). Hillary's webpage has a lot of gauzy feel-good talk on making the economy fairer for the middle class, but when you brush aside the buzzwords, there's not a whole lot of "there" there. What would President Hillary Clinton do to actually change things? It's hard to say, at least from just reading her campaign website. She'd "stand up" and "fight" -- but for what, really?
But this is a little unfair to Clinton. It's a criticism of the pace she has chosen for her campaign, which is always a fun thing for pundits to write about. Clinton has chosen a very gradual rollout for her agenda, and I for one am willing to wait a couple more weeks to see what specifics she's going to support. Her campaign is apparently focused right now on gun control, and they say Hillary's going to lay out her economic plans in the next ten days or so. As I said, I'm willing to wait that long to hear what her economic agenda will be.
Clinton will likely preview some of this in her upcoming interview. What she has to say may wind up surprising some folks, in both the Democratic voting base and in the media. Perhaps by waiting an extra few weeks, Hillary has avoided taking stances which are either too weak or too strong. She's obviously aware of Bernie's rise in popularity, so she'll be looking very closely at the biggest applause lines Bernie's been using in his speeches. This is all part of the predicted "move to the Left" which Bernie Sanders was going to force on Hillary Clinton. But by waiting, Hillary's now got the opportunity to take a strong stand on a few issues that she might not have, if Sanders hadn't run.
Both Sanders and Clinton have an opportunity to speak directly to the Lefty base next week, as the Netroots Nation conference gets underway in Phoenix. Eight years ago, almost all of the Democratic candidates for president showed up to court the thousands of bloggers and activists at Netroots Nation. Who will show up this year? Clinton could build some very valuable bridges by doing so, even if she might occasionally get booed for not taking strong enough positions. Sanders, of course, might get the loudest cheers of the entire conference -- perhaps even louder than Elizabeth Warren's speech.
Bernie Sanders represents a movement in American politics. Calling it "populist" or even "socialist" doesn't really accurately describe it, either. Sanders represents what a lot of people believe -- that politicians from both parties rarely (if ever) actually address issues that directly affect Main Street. Congress can bail out Wall Street in a matter of hours, but it takes years (decades, at times) to do something simple like raising the minimum wage. You can be cynical about this and label it "What's in it for me?" politics, but that's what most politics indeed can be boiled down to, in one way or another. And somehow, both major political parties love to make vague and sweeping promises using lots of buzzwords, but when it comes to actually passing legislation to change people's lives, they fall woefully short. Enter Bernie Sanders, and his platform. Bernie is telling people "this is precisely what can be done for everyone, and this is how I'll do it." Compare this to the platform of every other candidate running, and it's pretty easy to see why the crowds are flocking to hear Bernie.
Can Bernie Sanders ride this wave all the way to the presidency? I have no idea. I mean, it'd be a wonderful thing to see happen, but I truly have no idea of whether it is within the realm of the politically possible or not. If he continues to pull in record crowds and his poll numbers improve to the point where he's beating Clinton in key states, then it'll be a lot easier to believe Bernie can go all the way. If the media ever start taking his ideas seriously, a lot more people could hear about Bernie's agenda items. But Clinton is still a force to be reckoned with, and she's about to lay out her own economic agenda. If Hillary matches Bernie on most of the issues, will it cause a shift of support back to her? This is why I began this article by saying the next few weeks are going to be mighty interesting in the Democratic field for president. Sure, it's more fun to watch whatever craziness is happening over on the Republican side, but the Democratic race is going to get a lot more substantive in the next few days.
-- Chris Weigant
Cross-posted at The Huffington Post
Follow Chris on Twitter: @ChrisWeigant
Chris,
Token mentions of Biden as being "one the three candidates to manage this feat" aren't really necessary until, you know, he enters the race ... which will be never.
:-)
Two quick comments on Candidate Bernie Sanders
1. His net worth is reported to be under a half million dollars.
2. He has a remarkable gift for expressing complex thoughts in very few words. Longer than a bumper sticker, shorter than a elevator presentation. Closer to the time it takes for an elevator's doors to open and close. Check out Brainy Quotes.
LizM -
I actually wrote that paragraph without Biden, but when I was editing it, I thought "That's not true, Biden's regularly in the teens in polling" so I added that to make it correct.
At the end of last week, there was a rumor making the rounds that Biden was going to jump in the race, after watching Bernie's rise in support. Don't know how true this is, it was just a rumor, but thought you'd be interested.
-CW
Hey Chris ... don't get me wrong ... I would thoroughly LOVE to see Biden give it another go-round because I know if he does it will be for all the right reasons.
It's just that I can't get that less than one percent vote in Iowa, 2008 out of my mind. And, the fact that I was so wrong about the public impression of Biden, courtesy of the asinine media storyline on him, not having been mitigated enough by his vice presidency.
Too many Americans just don't take him seriously. Which is a great shame and an enduring source of intense frustration for me ...
I'm liking Hillary more than I expected to in the build up to this year, but I'm also really liking Bernie, and for exactly the reasons you state.
I think he decided to run because he felt his message was vital and needed to be thrust into the campaign, but I don't think he believed he'd be a contender. As a result he has run as a man with nothing to lose -- his message is the point -- and the irony is that by not trying to be clever or packaged and by not worrying about who he'll offend, he's coming across as honest and authentic and people are responding. I also love that he won't put up with stupid journalist questions -- he questions the premises of many and refuses to let interviews be about him-versus-Hillary. It's incredibly refreshing.
Meanwhile, did you read the article today: A Reporter Reveals How the Press Treats Hillary Clinton. Kevin Drum does the summary; I think the full article is at Vox.com. Between all the crap baked in to how the press treats Hillary, and the refusal, so far, to take Bernie seriously, our journalist class continues to frustrate more than anything. But I hope that as she begins to make her plans public she gets a fair hearing. And the way she chooses to deal with Bernie will be enlightening. We'll see.
On really doesn't have to wonder what a Bernie presidency would look like.
We have a perfect example of that in Greece....
That pretty much answers the "electibility" question...
There is no way that Sanders would be elected POTUS.. But, as I said before, the best thing for this country would be if he won the Dem nomination... :D
Michale
M-6
How so? Does Vermont resemble (modern) Greece? Does Burlington resemble (modern) Athens? Vermont is a bit of a backwater, not exactly an easy place to live but a nice one (I've lived about 1/3 of my life in the unpopulated parts of the NE USA). The Shire and Hobbiton, in the best possible USA/reality sense.
Sanders' political policies (he was actually quite good at getting them implemented)haven't driven Vt. or Burlington into the ground. Angela Merkel isn't releasing hordes of Orcs on 'em. The voters keep reelecting Sanders with substantial margins.
So what what is your cause and effect point? Or this just the handiest thought-free slur you could come up with given your high volume of editorial output?
“I’ve been thinking about it for a while because I’ve seen how things are deteriorating. But with everything happening now, I decided it’s time to go. The system doesn’t work here.
It’s hard to quit and start over but I have no choice. My kids are worried and ask many questions but they understand. We don’t even have money to go to the movies. The cost of living is too high.
The government gives money to the people who don’t work, to those doing drugs, living on welfare. I’m not willing to do that anymore.”
Puerto Rican Resident Yessenia Puente
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/article26622070.html#storylink=cpy
Take heart, Mrs Puente..
That system, the system that continues cradle to grave welfare, the system that rewards sloth, laziness and drug use.....???
That system doesn't work ANYWHERE...
Bienvenido a los Estados Unidos...
Michale
M-6
The chances of Sanders ever being President seem remote in the extreme, on that we more or less agree.
M-8 "That system doesn't work ANYWHERE..."
WTF?!
It works in Germany! Cradle to grave. Well managed, that's the German touch.
Germany has another advantage that Greece doesn't. The other big powers of The Western Block treat Germany as too big to fail. Germany's curse and salvation in the 20th and 21st century are the same thing...economic powerhouse,largely located on a flat plain, in close proximity to the Russian Empire.
Poor Greece, geography is destiny.
So what what is your cause and effect point?
The common theme, whether it be Detroit or Puerto Rico or Greece, the common theme is cradle to grave welfare...
The common theme is financially taking care of those who refuse to take care of themselves...
The common theme is spending other people's money very VERY unwisely...
The common theme is people wanting a champagne lifestyle but refuse to even pay for beer and the governments that give them that...
That is the problem with Bernie Sanders.. He is no different than the leaders in Detroit, the leaders in Puerto Rico and the leaders in Greece...
Promise the people an easy life and take money from those who EARN it to provide that easy life...
But the money runs out eventually...
Michale
It works in Germany! Cradle to grave. Well managed, that's the German touch.
Bull.. I *KNOW* Germany.. And I know for a fact that their welfare system is NOTHING like Greece's...
Face the facts.. Left Wing governments work for a bit.. Right up to the point that they run out of other people's money..
Then they go the way of Detroit, Puerto Rico and Greece...
This is what history has proven beyond any doubt...
Michale
The chances of Sanders ever being President seem remote in the extreme, on that we more or less agree.
And why do you think that is??
Because the vast majority of Americans instinctively recognize a Ponzi Scam when they see it...
Michale
Germany's welfare programs are designed to eliminate themselves... They are designed to get people OFF welfare and back to work...
Left Wing welfare programs are designed to perpetuate themselves.. Keep people ON welfare. I know this for a fact...
Make them dependent on government so sheeple will continue to vote into office the "leaders" that keep them enslaved....
The plantations may have changed but the goal is still the same..
Hold onto power by enslaving the sheeple...
Michale
M-9
Yes, the German social security system is nothing like the one in Greece, but it's still a cradle to grave system....and a generous one. It's also well managed, but I already said that.
The point is this: a well managed social welfare state can work. A well managed systen can work in successful capitalist economy. Germany is one proof, there are others. You made the blanket statement it can't work.
Do you need some help understanding haggling as well?
The point is this: a well managed social welfare state can work. A well managed systen can work in successful capitalist economy. Germany is one proof, there are others. You made the blanket statement it can't work.
Germany is NOT proof because it's welfare program is NOT cradle to grave...
It's designed as a hand up, not a hand out..
The kinds of systems that were at work in Detroit and are at work in Puerto Rico and Greece are true Cradle To Grave welfare systems as they are commonly defined..
But don't take my word for it..
Let's ask Yessenia Puente if cradle to grave welfare works..
If paying people NOT to work, paying people who are lazy and drug users is a viable "well managed" system...
Lefties in this country oppose drug testing for welfare recipients...
Bernie could never be elected POTUS because the American people don't want to be like Greece...
It's really that simple...
Michale
https://euobserver.com/social/125368
Looks like the German Welfare system POST-EU is not the cradle to grave system you think it is.. :D
Michale
That is the problem with Bernie Sanders.. He is no different than the leaders in Detroit, the leaders in Puerto Rico and the leaders in Greece...
Nice slippery slope you are constructing there. Do you have any proof beyond anti-left hysteria that Bernie Sanders would increase social spending to Greece levels or are you just talking your typical anti-left smack?
You might want to actually read up on Greece. I know, I know you don't do that. But if you did I think you would find that many political philosophies were at fault in Greece. Yes, their social spending was obscene to even the most leftest of the left in the US. But was in the realm of financial possibility if tax avoidance was not a national pastime. Now which political group in the US are radically anti-tax? This is just an extension of that philosophy. Greece was forced into austerity. Which political group demanded austerity in response to the 2008 financial crisis? I would think the Eurozone would be a states rights wet dream. Very weak Federal government, strong independent states. Well states right folks, does that extend to the freedom of financial mismanagement to a level that brings the rest of the union down? At what point are the banks, who pre 2008 financial crisis were looking at debt as not a risk but a product to sell, responsible for a default by not doing due diligence? Many things worked together to bring Greece down, especially the 2008 finical crisis...
Greece was forced into austerity BECAUSE of their out of control spending...
And did Greece abide by that austerity?? No they did not.. In 2013, government spending was 60% of their GDP...
You call THAT "austerity"???
But yer right on one point.. The taxpayers of Greece deserve a lot of the blame.. 90% of Greek taxes are outstanding...
But, where does the blame for that lie?? In the taxpayers for being completely and utterly irresponsible in thinking the government will take care of them??
Why, yes.... But the government ALSO shares the blame for fostering and REWARDING such attitudes..
So, to sum up...
Greek government spending is 60% of their GDP...
90% of Greek taxes are unpaid and outstanding...
"No studying?? pppffftttt"
Bill Murray, GHOSTBUSTERS
:D
Michale
Many things worked together to bring Greece down, especially the 2008 finical crisis...
Yea, the leaders who called EU leaders "terrorists" and demanded war reparations for Nazi crimes are utterly and completely blameless...
Another Left Wing trait...
EVERYONE is at fault except for the Left Wingers... :^/
Michale
Do you have any proof beyond anti-left hysteria that Bernie Sanders would increase social spending to Greece levels
Free College??? $15 p/h min wage...
Whose going to pay for all that??
Oh yea.. "The rich"...
And whose going to pay for it all NEXT year??
And the year after that?? And the year after that??
You *DO* realize that if you take more from the rich and more from the rich and more from the rich, one of two things will happen..
1. They won't be rich anymore
or
B. They will take their richness, give ya'all the finger and move their business and their richness somewhere else..
And lo and behold, the USA becomes Greece...
That's the point that Leftys just never seem to grasp...
Robbing the rich and giving to the government ONLY works as long as there are rich people to rob....
Michale
Greece was forced into austerity BECAUSE of their out of control spending...
No, Greece was forced into austerity because it was about to default on their loans and the rest of Europe felt it was in their interest to bail out the banks. Their out of control spending was a major factor in the mess but not the only one.
Greek government spending is 60% of their GDP.
After the GDP dropped 30% due to the 2008 financial crisis...
Yea, the leaders who called EU leaders "terrorists" and demanded war reparations for Nazi crimes are utterly and completely blameless...
What are you blabbing on about?
EVERYONE is at fault except for the Left Wingers... :^/
Actually I faulted the left first. Obscene social spending. I'm looking the whole picture and not just the anti-left slice of it...
I have said it before and I'll say it again..
I am just a lowly knuckle dragging ground-pounder.. I'll leave the high and mighty economic theory to you giants..
But I DO have an abundance of common sense..
And THAT tells me when one lives beyond their means, bad things will eventually happen..
To paraphrase Bob Seger...
"You can shake it for a while, live it up in style..
But no matter what you do, it's going to take you down.."
Doesn't matter whether you are a pimply-faced teenager, a struggling parent or a country..
If you continue to live beyond your means you WILL, sooner or later, crash and burn..
And no amount of snooty elitist up-turned nose ideological argument is going to change that one simple fact...
What are you blabbing on about?
Maybe you should read a little about Greece... :D
Greece demands €278bn WWII reparations from Germany - more than its debt to EU
http://rt.com/news/247353-greece-germany-reparations-billions/
Michale
Actually I faulted the left first. Obscene social spending. I'm looking the whole picture and not just the anti-left slice of it..
Fair enough....
We completely agree..
"Obscene social spending"....
Sure, there are other factors.. In something this large and complex, there would HAVE to be other factors..
But the other factors would likely have been manageable if not for the "obscene social spending"...
THAT is my point...
Obscene social spending DOESN'T work....
Michale
"Obscene social spending"
And $15 p/h for flipping burgers, mopping floors or emptying garbage is pretty obscene....
Especially when 1st year Police Officers make less..
Michale...
Job wages SHOULD be defined by what the job entails first and foremost...
THEN look at COLA issues etc etc...
What the employee WANTS to make should NEVER, EVER be a consideration...
Michale
Free College??? $15 p/h min wage...
Whose going to pay for all that??
Increased economic output by not saddling people with student debt or allowing them work at unlivable wages. The rich not getting richer at quite the same obscene rate...
Robbing the rich and giving to the government ONLY works as long as there are rich people to rob....
Robbing the poor and middle class to give to the rich only works as long as the poor and middle class can to continue to generate extra revenue...
Obscene social spending DOESN'T work....
Agreed, but any social spending is not automatically obscene social spending. At least that is what your straw man seems to be implying...
And $15 p/h for flipping burgers, mopping floors or emptying garbage is pretty obscene....
When it does not pay the rent or afford food it is hardly obscene.
Especially when 1st year Police Officers make less..
Base pay or are you including overtime (where police really make their money), good benefits and an eventual pension? Also, where are you cherry picking the base pay from? San Francisco offers $80,574 per year for a starting police officer...
What the employee WANTS to make should NEVER, EVER be a consideration...
And what about what they NEED to make to survive? Should that also not be a consideration?
Do you think Greece should be allowed to remain in the Euro???
Michale
And what about what they NEED to make to survive? Should that also not be a consideration?
Nope...
Because "survive" is subjective..
And employee would think that he MUST have his PS4 and his 63" Smart TV to "survive"..
If a person needs more $$$ to "survive" let them work more jobs..
When I was a senior in High School, I worked two jobs PLUS school...
The problem with most people today is that they feel that society owes them a living....
Michale
Base pay or are you including overtime (where police really make their money), good benefits and an eventual pension? Also, where are you cherry picking the base pay from? San Francisco offers $80,574 per year for a starting police officer...
The simple fact that somewhere there are police officers who make less than what these lusers demand is obscene...
If one wants better pay, here's a thought..
EARN IT!!!
It's a radical concept, I realize....
Michale
Because "survive" is subjective..
Is average lower level rent and minimum levels of nutrition also subjective?
The problem with most people today is that they feel that society owes them a living....
Or at least your cherry picked subset...
When I was a senior in High School, I worked two jobs PLUS school...
And I walked to school in 4 feet of snow..
Uphill.. BOTH ways!!! :D
Michale
Is average lower level rent and minimum levels of nutrition also subjective?
Where does the actual JOB and Job performance enter into your pay scale??
In your method, it's apparently non-existent..
Or at least your cherry picked subset...
Anyone who is demanding $15 p/h for menial labor a trained monkee could do is part of that cherry picked subset...
Which is pretty much the entire Left Wing...
Present company excepted, of course.. :D
Michale
The simple fact that somewhere there are police officers who make less than what these lusers demand is obscene...
Is it a fact? What is the total compensation after overtime of these police officers compared to the total compensation of a $15 an hour burger flipper?
If one wants better pay, here's a thought..
EARN IT!!!
Or move to a community that's not so cheap...
Is average lower level rent and minimum levels of nutrition also subjective?
"To each, according to his needs. From each according to his abilities"
Sound familiar??
Michale
Michale,
It is clear from your end of the discussion here that you do not value the work that people do and have little if any appreciation for the work that people do. I'm one of those people.
It is also clear that you wish to ignore all of the benefits to society and the economy as a whole when people are paid a living wage or more and are valued for the work they do, everyday with pride.
I'm actually quite surprised that people around here who I also assume work are so willing to converse with you when you show no respect whatsoever for working people. Perhaps this disrespect that you harbour applies to yourself as well.
Sound familiar??
So, we have descended to calling the left communists...
Yawn.
It is clear from your end of the discussion here that you do not value the work that people do and have little if any appreciation for the work that people do.
Simply not true...
I am actually the ONLY one here who DOES value work, as I am the ONLY one who wants to pay people wages commeseriate with the actual work..
Put another way. Ya'all want to pay a burger-flipper/trash-picker-upper/floor-mopper the SAME as you would pay a police officer..
That tells me that it's YA'ALL who don't value the work..
All honest work is honorable... That is not in dispute...
But paying a burger flipper more than paying a police officer??
That's ridiculous bordering... CROSSING the border... into obscene..
It is also clear that you wish to ignore all of the benefits to society and the economy as a whole when people are paid a living wage or more and are valued for the work they do, everyday with pride.
Mitt Romney's "living wage" would be a lot more than Dylan Root's "living wage"...
Are you suggesting that "living wage" is the only consideration??
I'm actually quite surprised that people around here who I also assume work are so willing to converse with you when you show no respect whatsoever for working people.
As I have shown.. I am the ONLY one here who DOES have respect for working people...
I have respect for ALL working people, not just the ones who are politically/ideologically acceptable...
Michale
So, we have descended to calling the left communists...
If the cossack fits....
What do you think "average lower level rent and minimum levels of nutrition also subjective?" means if not "to each according to his needs"..???
But, credit where credit is due..
Kudos on the come-back.. Made me laugh.. :D
Michale
You're not fooling anyone, Michale, with the possible exception of yourself.
Liz,
How much does one respect the work of a police officer or a fire-fighter if they are willing to pay a burger-flipper more???
I mean, if we want to talk "respect", I am MORE than willing...
But remember..
It's a two-way street that doesn't.... SHOULDN'T... make allowances for political ideology...
In other words, politically correct vehicles are not {{this}} street legal.. :D
Michale
You're not fooling anyone, Michale, with the possible exception of yourself.
I have NO idea what you are referring to.. :D
Michale
The simple fact that we are ALL in agreement that Bernie could not possibly be elected POTUS should be an indication to ya'all of the validity of my argument...
Bernie has a LOT of great ideas..
Obama did too....
But when the rubber hits the road???
Train wreck....
Good ideas do not a good leader make..
If the last 6 years taught us all ANYTHING, it taught us that...
Michale
How much does one respect the work of a police officer or a fire-fighter if they are willing to pay a burger-flipper more???
Why don't you change up your argument, from time to time, you know, just for the sake of variety ...
Why don't you leave the lower-scale workers alone and compare what we pay police officers with what the average draftee gets for his efforts in major league baseball ... before, I might add, he even proves he can play with the big boys. And, notice I said 'play', not even work!
Let's have THAT discussion, shall we?
Bashi,
Or move to a community that's not so cheap...
I hear Greece and Puerto Rico has some vacancies... :D heh
Michale
And, if you want to talk 'obscene', then let's talk about getting 25 millions dollars a year to play a game for half the year.
I hope you don't treat your own workers with the same disrespect you have put on display here.
How much does one respect the work of a police officer or a fire-fighter if they are willing to pay a burger-flipper more???
False dichotomy. If you have a $15 an hour minimum wage, everyone else's wage will typically go up. Seems if you value the starting wage of a police officer so much you would want the increase of the minimum wage as cheap communities would have to offer more than the new minimum to attract new recruits.
Do I value the police or burger flipper more...depends on how good the burger is. Though I do value the fire fighter more than either of them...
Why don't you change up your argument, from time to time, you know, just for the sake of variety ...
I use the arguments I use because they are successful and have yet to be refuted..
Sue me for going with what works. :D
Why don't you leave the lower-scale workers alone and compare what we pay police officers with what the average draftee gets for his efforts in major league baseball ... before, I might add, he even proves he can play with the big boys. And, notice I said 'play', not even work!
Let's have THAT discussion, shall we?
Because there is no discussion.. We would be in complete agreement that the sports stars and movie stars in our society make OBSCENE amounts of money..
Why don't ya'all go after THEIR riches?? Why do we hear so much from the Left on the Kochs and ZERO from the Left on the Michael Moores or the Susan Sarandons or the Warren Buffets???
Because they are ideologically and politically acceptable, ergo they are off-limits...
I go after the lower-scale workers that are demanding pay not commiserate to their work... They want hand-outs... Wealth not earned...
They are all about ME ME ME ME and frak anyone else...
They don't care that if THEY get their raises, MANY employees will LOSE their jobs...
And I should really CARE about those selfish arseholes??
Not in this lifetime...
Michale
Do I value the police or burger flipper more...depends on how good the burger is.
Next time you get mugged, call your burger flipper..
Lemme know how that works out for ya... :D
I know, I know.. You pack...
But the argument is still valid.. :D
If you have a $15 an hour minimum wage, everyone else's wage will typically go up.
And WHO is going to pay for this across the board wage increases???
You volunteering?? :D
Michale
I go after the lower-scale workers that are demanding pay not commiserate to their work..
And, who, may I ask, are you to be deciding what pay rate is acceptable?
Careful, your true colours on this issue are showing ...
I hope you don't treat your own workers with the same disrespect you have put on display here.
I can't afford workers anymore...
Thank you Obama-Economics......
If I could, I wouldn't pay the person who empties my garbage the same I would pay the guy who rebuilds the laptops...
THAT's the point ya'all seem to miss....
Michale
The point that you miss is that they BOTH deserve RESPECT!
And, who, may I ask, are you to be deciding what pay rate is acceptable?
Depends on what field we are talking..
If we are talking Security, Law Enforcement, PMC, laptop and TV repair or child/grandchild raising??
I would be quite comfortable in deciding what pay rate is acceptable...
Any other field?? I would have to wing it..
But, here again.. Common sense comes in REAL handy..
And common sense tells me it's insane, OBSCENE, to pay a person who flips burgers at McDonalds more than a police officers...
THAT is common sense...
Michale
I hear Greece and Puerto Rico has some vacancies... :D heh
Man, you really want to stick it to those first year police officers. I wonder what the starting wage is for a police officer in Greece and Puerto Rico...
One of the cleaners where I work is Spanish-speaking and a published author of political prose and poetry.
Everytime he comes by I try to increase my knowledge and use of Spanish and he is a very good and patient teacher.
And common sense tells me it's insane, OBSCENE, to pay a person who flips burgers at McDonalds more than a police officers...THAT is common sense...
You give strawman arguments whole new meaning, Michale.
The point that you miss is that they BOTH deserve RESPECT!
I completely agree.
As I have said, ALL honest work is honorable and worthy of respect..
But paying a burger flipper at McDonalds *MORE* than paying a police officer??
THAT is the EPITOME of disrespect to the police officer...
No one is saying that honest workers don't deserve respect..
The discussion is what level of PAY they deserve...
Cops should make more than burger flippers..
That is ALL I am saying...
Michale
You give strawman arguments whole new meaning, Michale.
So, you don't agree??
You think it's perfectly acceptable to give a burger flipper higher pay than a police officer??
Or are you questioning the fact that there are many municipalities that pay starting police officers less than $15 an hour??
If I prove the point will you concede the argument??
Michale
You're not dealing with stupid people here, Michale. And, we are not saying that there should not be a wage scale and proper compensation to match the value of the work rendered.
So, STOP implying that we are!
Next time you get mugged, call your burger flipper..
Pay a living wage and I might not get mugged in the first place...
Cops should make more than burger flippers..
Your argument is that one should be paid less than the other. You are criticizing working people for demanding a higher minimum, living wage.
Why not make the argument that the compensation that cops receive should be substantially increased, instead of whining about what the minimum wage should be?
Man, you really want to stick it to those first year police officers. I wonder what the starting wage is for a police officer in Greece and Puerto Rico...
Puerto Rico, the average is $30,000 a year... Which is OBSCENE...
The Hellenic Police in Greece... I am still searching.. But Greece's Min Wage is the highest of all the EU countries...
http://www.grreporter.info/en/sites/default/files/galery/maria/794700C321209A30A8A7AC12A9F3AE0E.jpg
That might help you...
It's... er... Greek to me...
BWWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :D
Sorry, I could NOT resist... :D
Michale
Your argument is that one should be paid less than the other.
Abso-frakin-loutly!!!
I would expect a doctor to be paid more than a police officer..
I would expect a police officer to be paid more than a burger flipper....
Again, this is what common sense dictates...
You are criticizing working people for demanding a higher minimum, living wage.
I am criticizing working people for being greedy and caring about their own lives and ignoring the consequences of their actions...
Their $15 an hour raise would likely cause 20% of their co-workers to be fired..
Do they care?? Of course not...
Why not make the argument that the compensation that cops receive should be substantially increased, instead of whining about what the minimum wage should be?
Because it's no argument..
Compensation for cops SHOULD be increased....
And, if cops were out there whining and crying that they should be paid as much as doctors, then I would probably say that THEY are ridiculous as well... :D
Michale
The truth of the matter, Michale, is that you do not want to pay police officers a salary that would be appropriate for the value of their work because that would necessarily require an increase in taxes.
It's much better for you to argue that the wage should be kept low and lower yet for those workers whose work you deem to be valued lower.
OK, I am a fair guy...
Ya'all advocate raising EVERYONE's wages commiserate with a $15 p/h min wage...
Once that is accomplished I will join with ya'all arm in arm and fight tooth and nail to have the min wage raised to $15 p/h...
What could POSSIBLY be more fair than that???
Michale
I would expect a doctor to be paid more than a police officer..I would expect a police officer to be paid more than a burger flipper....Again, this is what common sense dictates...
Again, you (purposefully) miss the point as no one is arguing that there shouldn't be a wage scale based on value of work. NO ONE!!
I would expect a doctor to be paid more than a police officer..I would expect a police officer to be paid more than a burger flipper....Again, this is what common sense dictates...
Again, you (purposefully) miss the point as no one is arguing that there shouldn't be a wage scale based on value of work. NO ONE!!
Michale[66]
Finally, you are beginning to make some good sense!:)
I knew you would. Heh.
The truth of the matter, Michale, is that you do not want to pay police officers a salary that would be appropriate for the value of their work because that would necessarily require an increase in taxes
Under those circumstances, I would not object to a tax increase...
As long as I could be assured that the increase WOULD go to police officer salaries and not in the pocket of some arsehole politician...
It's much better for you to argue that the wage should be kept low and lower yet for those workers whose work you deem to be valued lower.
The workers are not valued lower..
Their WORK is valued lower.... Due to the NATURE of their work...
I honestly fail to understand why that is a bad thing??
A brain surgeon's work is far more valuable than the work of a trash-emptier... Hence the brain surgeon is paid MORE than the trash-emptier...
That doesn't make the brain surgeon a good person or the trash emptier a BAD person... It simply means that, of the work they both do, one is more valuable hence more compensated than the other..
This is common sense..
I honestly fail to understand why I am the only one here who sees that...
Michale
I honestly fail to understand why that is a bad thing??
I honestly fail to understand why you think we disagree on this!
Ya'all advocate raising EVERYONE's wages commiserate with a $15 p/h min wage...
Uh...that's kind of the point. Once you set a minimum wage everyone else's wage rises as well or all your first year police officers will just jump ship and get paid the same amount to do less stressful work.
Plus, once the total compensation package is compared, even if the police officer's base wage is the same as the burger flipper, they are still making considerably more in the end, negating your entire burger flipper/police officer comparison...
Finally, you are beginning to make some good sense!:)
I guess I wasn't being clear..
I don't have a problem, per se, with increasing the min wage...
The problem I have is with increasing the min wage and ignoring other, more valuable, more productive jobs and careers..
The other problem I have is how the across-the-board salary increase is going to be paid for...
For example...
Let's say McDonalds agrees to raise the min wage to $15 p/h... But, as a result of that, they are increased the cost of each and every item by $5.....
Would you be willing to patronize McDonalds and support the min wage workers???
Would you be **ABLE** to patronize McDonalds and support the min wage workers???
It's all about the consequences...
Michale
Uh...that's kind of the point. Once you set a minimum wage everyone else's wage rises as well or all your first year police officers will just jump ship and get paid the same amount to do less stressful work.
Let's do it the other way...
let's raise everyone else's wages first and THEN move on to the min wage people...
No one here wants to do THAT, eh??? :D
Michale
Of course there are consequences for raising the minimum wage ... some good, some bad, depending on one's perspective.
What we need to do is look at the big picture and understand what the overall cost/benefit to society is by making this change and other changes that will improve the system as a whole.
The problem with this discussion is that we have not been talking about these issues and having an intelligent debate about what is the right course of action to take.
Which, I'm sad to say, is very typical of most discussions here.
Police officers, just by the nature of the job, have opportunities for corruption. They should be paid enough not to be driven to take those opportunities. That's separate from any judgment of how deserving they are: if someone thinks police officers aren't worth all that much, that's a reason not to hire the police officers at all, not to have underpaid officers.
They should be paid enough not to be driven to take those opportunities.
Is there such a sum? The NY city police officers make quite a bit compared to other parts of the county and are still quite corrupt...
The problem with this discussion is that we have not been talking about these issues and having an intelligent debate about what is the right course of action to take.
No.. The problem here is that Leftist ideology takes precedence in practically ANY discussion we have...
If it didn't, we wouldn't be HAVING the discussion on min wage, but rather be discussing the problem of stagnant wages across the board under the Obama Administration..
But discussing the min wage is politically acceptable..
Discussion Obama's economic failures is not...
Michale
Police officers, just by the nature of the job, have opportunities for corruption. They should be paid enough not to be driven to take those opportunities.
Call me old-fashioned and idealistic..
While I see the logic of your's and Bashi's statement, I have the same problem with this as I have with Bashi's "if we pay min wage people more, they won't mug people" statement..
We shouldn't have to PAY people NOT to be criminals...
Doing so smacks of extortion...
Michale
Uh...that's kind of the point. Once you set a minimum wage everyone else's wage rises as well or all your first year police officers will just jump ship and get paid the same amount to do less stressful work.
You assume that Police Officers do what they do for the pay...
You assume wrong..
NO COP on this planet does what they do for the pay....
"Being a cop is not what we do, it's who we are!"
-James Woods, THE HARD WAY
Michale
NY city police officers make quite a bit compared to other parts of the county and are still quite corrupt...
Adequate pay is a necessary condition for having an honest police force, not a sufficient condition. You have to pay them adequately, but you also have to have institutions that support a culture both of self-policing and of accepting civilian monitoring.
Not everyone who's corrupt is driven to it by desperation. But in any large group of people, there are some who will fall into corruption if they're desperate and the opportunity is offered.
Xxxx-cellent! /\
Burns is back! Harry Shearer has re-uped with the Simpsons!!!! A grateful nation rejoices.
I'm taking tomorrow off!!!!!!!!
Allow me to assist, oh Tablet'ed One.. :D
http://www.komonews.com/news/entertainment/Harry-Shearer-back-at-The-Simpsons-after-contract-dispute-312191471.html
Michale
Under the "DUUUUUHHHH" heading...
The aliens KANG and KODOS from The Simpsons were named from Star Trek characters...
Kang was the Klingon captain from DAY OF THE DOVE played by Michael Ansara...
Kodos was KODOS THE EXECUTIONER from the episode CONSCIENCE OF THE KING...
I can't believe I didn't pick up on that....
Michale
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!/\
Share of the merchandising for Mr. Shearer??
(73) Uh...that's kind of the point. Once you set a minimum wage everyone else's wage rises as well or all your first year police officers will just jump ship and get paid the same amount to do less stressful work.
Precisely. The purpose of raising the minimum wage is to raise the floor. If we raised the min wage nationwide to $15/hour, it would mean many, many more people than min wage earners would get raises. And they should. Basically the entire bottom 98% needs a raise, but most definitely anyone not making at least $15 -- I think $20, really. To pay anyone less is to expect them to labor but not be able to meet expenses. It is both immoral and a stupid way to run an economy. And people need to remember that economies are built on social laws, not physical laws. They are simply collections of taxes, incentives and similar. All aspects can be tinkered with and adjusted and, when adjusted, can create different outcomes. The notion that we're collectively at the mercy of "forces beyond our control" is bullshit. Also bullshit is any notion of people "deserving" a living wage, or more accurately, not deserving a living wage. Everyone who works deserves a living wage -- it needs to be sufficient to meet expenses with some left over for saving and spending or why the hell bother at all? And there will be some people who can't work and as a socieity we should see they are taken care of. Anything less is shameful. The fact that there will always be some miniscule percentage that theoretically could work but chooses not to is not an acceptable excuse to withhold support for those who genuinely need it.
Hate ta break it to ya, Paula..
But wages are built on the needs of the business, NOT the needs of the employees...
If someone wants higher pay, then they must EARN that higher pay...
This "living wage" carp is nothing more than welfare... It crushes the human spirit and eliminates striving and accomplishment..
Why work hard and STRIVE for better pay when it can be just handed to you...
Michale
Lemme ask ya'all this..
Does the person who works 1 hour a week flipping burgers deserve the same "living wage" that someone who works 50 hours a week fighting fires and saving lives??
I mean, if the goal is to have someone "survive" to the exclusion of every other consideration, then the two people postulated above "deserve" the exact same pay...
I mean, they both work.. THAT seems to be ya'alls *only* criteria for pay...
Doesn't matter how hard they work.
Doesn't matter how LONG they work..
Doesn't matter how specialized the work is.
Doesn't matter how much training or schooling was needed to perform the work...
Doesn't matter how much society benefits from the work..
The ONLY thing that matters is that the person doing the work be paid enough to cover all their expenses with a little left over..
So, using ya'alls reasoning, the person who works 1 hour a week flipping burgers deserves the SAME EXACT pay as the person who works 50 hours a week saving lives and property...
Hell, why stop there??
The person who spends 1 hour a week flipping burgers deserve the EXACT SAME pay as President Of The United States....
Hazard Duty pay?? Chuck it out...
Remote Location pay?? Get rid of it...
Overtime?? Don't need it.
Merit bonuses?? VERY unfair. Lose it..
Housing Allowance?? COLA Allowance?? We don't need no stinkin' allowances..
Do ya'all see how completely ridiculous, untenable and unrealistic ya'alls position is??
In effect, ya'all just want to pay people to exist... People DESERVE pay simply because they are breathing...
Ridiculous.. Untenable... Unrealistic...
Michale
This "living wage" carp is nothing more than welfare...
Do you know how I know that this living wage thing is carp??
Because DEMOCRATS themselves think so..
The DC City Council voted to make Walmart pay a "living wage"..
Yet, the city themselves DON'T pay that much!!!
Hillary has over 300 people that work for NO PAY at all.. I think Democrats refer to those kinds of people as "slaves"...
As I am wont to say..
If Democrats are all about this "living wage" stuff, then maybe they should get their own house in order first, eh?
Michale
For Hillary, the key is sincerity..
The making of a Hillary Clinton echo chamber
One day in May, operatives from a Washington-based super PAC gathered New Hampshire mayors, state representatives and local politicos at Saint Anselm College for a day of training.
They rehearsed their personal tales of how they met Hillary Rodham Clinton and why they support her for president. They sharpened their defenses of her record as secretary of state. They scripted their arguments for why the Democratic front-runner has been “a lifetime champion of income opportunity.” And they polished their on-camera presentations in a series of mock interviews.
The objective of the sessions: to nurture a seemingly grass-roots echo chamber of Clinton supporters reading from the same script across the communities that dot New Hampshire, a critical state that holds the nation’s first presidential primary.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/the-making-of-a-hillary-clinton-echo-chamber/2015/07/07/01625c5e-24ae-11e5-b72c-2b7d516e1e0e_story.html
Once she can fake that, she should have it made! :D heh
Did someone mention "Astro Turf"?? :D
Michale
CW,
Have a comment in the NNL filter..
Just FYI.... :D
Michale
Speaking of the EU...
"As business secretary, I take great overall responsibility for negotiations concerning the single market.
Across my desk the other day I got a brief saying that the EU wants to regulate the number of condoms you have in a packet.
What going on at the moment is that the Swedes are saying there must be five. They want one for Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday.
The French are saying 'Non! We want seven! We want one for Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and one for Saturday and Sunday.'
The Italians? They want nine, one for each weekday and two for Saturday and two for Sunday.
But you’ll be pleased to know that Britain has put its foot down. We want 12.
January, February, March, April, [etc.].
We will not be pushed around."
-UK Business Secretary Sajid Javid
As politically in-correct as that is..
It was funny as hell!! :D
Michale
But wages are built on the needs of the business, NOT the needs of the employees...
Actually they are built on both. See the 19th century union movement. Or are you suggesting we go back to the early industrial days of 11 hour day, 6 days a week with no medical benefits? Because that really helped the needs of business...
Of course there are consequences for raising the minimum wage ...
Rather than discussing whether to raise the minimum wage, what about discussing what's the best level for a minimum wage?
A minimum wage, theoretically, should cause some unemployment under certain conditions. But it should decrease unemployment under other conditions.
Saving always equals investment. Unemployment happens when intended saving exceeds intended investment: output decreases until they match. If income is diverted from people who want to save to people who will want to consume, that will decrease intended saving. If near-minimum-wage workers are concentrated in non-cyclical sectors, increasing minimum wage should increase demand in cyclical sectors.
The main reason that people expect minimum wage to cause unemployment is a fallacy of composition. If one firm were required to pay its lowest-paid workers more, it wouldn't be able to hire as many. If it tried, it would lose market share to its competitors. But if all firms that hire low-wage workers are required to pay more, their competitors are all in the same boat. There's no one to lose market share to. If one firm were required to pay its lowest-paid workers more, the effect on the whole economy would be essentially nothing. So effects like increased aggregate demand don't come into play. But if all such firms are required to pay more, the effects on the whole economy may be more important than those on the markets for specific goods.
Actually they are built on both.
But the needs of the business comes first...
Paying people just because they need money isn't work..
It's welfare...
Michale
Actually they are built on both.
But the needs of the business comes first...
It's like the military..
Sure, you keep your troops welfare in mind...
But the needs of the service come first..
ALWAYS....
Without fail....
So it is with business...
You can argue against the reality all you want..
But it IS the reality of business...
Michale
A business who puts their employees before ANY other consideration simply won't be a business for long...
Again, this is the reality of business...
Michale
It's like the military..
Sure, you keep your troops welfare in mind...
But the needs of the service come first..
ALWAYS....
Without fail....
"You keep your priorities straight. Your mission and your men."
-Gene Hackman, CRIMSON TIDE
:D
Michale
OH MY GODS!!!!
“When you talk about the economy, we also have to have an honest assessment of unemployment in America. Once a month the government publishes a set of figures, and the last figures they published said that official unemployment was 5.4 percent.
But there is another set of government statistics and that says that real unemployment, if you include those people who have given up looking for work and the millions of others who are working part-time 20, 25 hours a week when they want to work full-time, if you add all of that together, real unemployment is 10.5 percent."
-Bernie Sanders
NOW he's gone and done it!!!!
He has contradicted The Messiah!! :D
Wonder who will support Bernie after THAT, eh?? :D
Michale
http://civicskunkworks.com/our-dystopian-15-nightmare-continues-seattles-jobless-rate-drops-to-4-3-percent/
Seattle is seeing a number of benefits resulting from their increasing minimum wage.
The economy doesn't work simply because there is 'x' amount of dollars in it, it works when those dollars circulate. Way too much money is sitting at the top of our insane pyramid, not circulating, and the economy as a whole is limping, and people below the midline are struggling.
There needs to be more money at the bottom and/or throughout. The stuff at the top is wasted. Put it in the pockets of working people and they will keep it moving and everyone benefits.
There needs to be more money at the bottom and/or throughout. The stuff at the top is wasted. Put it in the pockets of working people and they will keep it moving and everyone benefits.
Fine...
Then let's discuss Hillary's million dollar an hour speeches...
No??
You see, that's my point..
Ya'all have all these grandiose ideas on how to make middle class lives better..
But ya'all refuse to take care of your own house first.. You always want to start with the house across the aisle...
THAT is why I find it so hard to take all these claims and ideas seriously. Because I know for a fact they are borne of partisan ideology..
When ya'all start clamping down on your leaders then I will believe that it's serious..
Michale
When ya'all start clamping down on your leaders then I will believe that it's serious..
For example, I have been saying for years that the REAL Unemployment figures are upwards of 10% and have been resoundingly condemned and ridiculed for it..
Now the Socialist Hero says the EXACT same thing???
{{chhiiirrrrrppppp}} {{chiiirrrrrrppppp}}
Not a peep....
Michale
Then let's discuss Hillary's million dollar an hour speeches...
Hillary's million dollar speeches are a symptom of a number of interconnected problems, not the cause. Nor is she alone in commanding these types of fees -- if you want to talk about why some people get paid a lot to speak, you can. But if you single her out as though she's the only beneficiary of this type of largesse there's no point in further discussion.
Hillary's million dollar speeches are a symptom of a number of interconnected problems, not the cause. Nor is she alone in commanding these types of fees -- if you want to talk about why some people get paid a lot to speak, you can. But if you single her out as though she's the only beneficiary of this type of largesse there's no point in further discussion.
Fair enough...
But I would argue that she is the only politician running for POTUS who commands those kinds of fees...
If you know of another, I'll refer to Ross Perot..
"I am all ears...."
:D
But whether or not it's a symptom or a cause, the simple fact is no one here wants to address it when it's a symptom/cause from the Left.....
THAT is my point...
Until anyone here can take a Lefty to task for the things ya'all take Rightys to task, it's nothing more than partisan BS...
You want to condemn $$$ in politics, then condemn ALL $$$ in politics..
Not just the $$$ from the Right...
You want to slam the Koch Brothers?? Fine..
Then slam George Soros...
You want to slam Nelson Adelson?? Fine..
Then slam Warren Buffett...
You hate CITIZENS UNITED?? Fine...
Then slam the LEFTY SuperPacs that epitomize CU...
Because, if you don't, you show that your condemnation is Party motivated and designed to help the Party OVER Middle Class Americans...
That's all I am saying...
Michale