VP Debates Get No Respect
Tonight, the candidates for vice president will debate. Now, the vice-presidential debate is truly the Rodney Dangerfield of political events. Don't believe me? Here an the actual headline I read in my morning newspaper today: "Oh, There's A Vice Presidential Debate, Too." It don't get no respect, I tells ya... no respect.
I find that even I am not sufficiently excited about this event (which is another way of saying to my readers: "I won't be after-blogging tonight"). The two campaigns have made it pretty impossible to get excited about the vice-presidential debate, by dint of their choices for vice-presidential candidates. Mike Pence? Tim Kaine? Really? That's who you picked? Excuse me while I yawn enormously....
I suppose I shouldn't be so snarky. After all, it wasn't that long ago that I was snarking about the VP debate having too much entertainment value (shades of Sarah Palin, in other words). Although even Sarah Palin didn't manage to come up with the most memorable line during her debate -- that was left to Tina Fey's satiric portrayal of Palin on Saturday Night Live: "I can see Russia from my house." Palin will be long remembered for a line she never actually uttered, which is kind of bizarre. And testament to Fey's comic genius, as well.
But we don't have anything approaching Palin's entertainment value this time around. No, this time around the entertainment value is at the top of the Republican ticket. How many people are tuning in to the presidential debates just to see what crazy things Donald says? Approximately the same number who turned in to watch Palin do the exact same thing, I would venture a guess.
Trump made a very smart choice in picking Mike Pence, in all honesty. Trump desperately needed a boring and traditional politician to balance his ticket. If he had named someone like Chris Christie or (shudder) Rudy Giuliani, the rest of the campaign would have been a competition between the running mates as to who could say the most outrageous thing out on the stump. And Trump doesn't like competition in this arena, to put it mildly. You can say a lot of things about Mike Pence, but he's never going to overshadow Trump in any meaningful (or even meaningless) way.
Hillary Clinton had a different problem, but she chose the same solution as Trump. For Hillary, if she had named someone exciting (Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders) to her ticket, she would endlessly be compared to them in terms of crowd excitement and audience appeal (as indeed John McCain was to Palin). Hillary's already weak enough in those departments, so she smartly chose not to focus the entire rest of her campaign on the issue. She chose someone who, days before being named, described himself on national television as "boring." Clinton certainly didn't need any balance on experience, the way Trump obviously did, which left her free to choose a candidate who (a) won't outshine her, and (b) hails from a swing state. So far, this strategy seems to be paying off well, as Virginia isn't even on most pundits' lists of battleground states any more. The Clinton campaign signaled how confident they were in the state by pulling ad money out over a month ago, and Virginia still seems pretty solidly Democratic. How much Kaine had to do with all of this is debatable, but it certainly didn't hurt her chances in Virginia to pick him.
So we've got Governor Dull and Governor Boring in tonight's vice-presidential debate. The drinking games tonight should not revolve around alcohol, but rather on shots of espresso and Red Bull, just to keep everyone awake.
Perhaps that's too snarky. In reality, this could actually be the most substantive debate of the entire 2016 election season. Rather than a giant clash of personalities, the two men will have to defend their running mates' policy positions. In Pence's case, he'll also have to defend a wide range of outrageous Trump comments that Trump has refused to discuss. But for the most part, what tonight should bring is a meaningful examination of the differences the two major American political parties have in their respective agendas for the future. Pence may brush off Trump's outrageousness, but he can't do so for the conservative or Tea Party agenda, which he's been a strong fan of for his entire political career. So I look for him to make this case tonight, since it's familiar ground for him.
Tim Kaine, likewise, supports the Democratic agenda and should be well able to make this case to the American public. If he gets any questions about Clinton's scandals, he'll probably brush them off ("I've never even gotten an email from Hillary" might be a good line to use, if true). But he's got to make a strong case for the platform she's running on.
Of course, the traditional role of the vice-presidential candidates during the campaign is to be the attack dog. This year, that hasn't really been necessary for either one of them, as the attack-dog fight is being fought at the top of the ticket. This is a direct result of the picks both candidates made, it's worth mentioning -- both Clinton and Trump wanted the media focus to be solely on them, and that is precisely what has happened. No matter how much Kaine rips into Trump or Pence rips into Clinton, neither one of them is going to match the level of ferocity that Trump and Clinton display against each other in their own debates. To put this another way, I expect both Kaine and Pence to attempt some attack-dog lines tonight, but I don't really expect either one of them to be particularly good at it. I think most of the clever soundbites will fall pretty flat, considering the two men who will be delivering them. I could easily be wrong about this, I should mention -- perhaps we'll see fireworks tonight that are even more eye-opening than watching Trump and Clinton share a stage.
If that doesn't happen, then the 2016 vice-presidential debate will become nothing more than a footnote, the way it usually does. What is truly sad about this is that it might be the only substantive policy discussion between the two major parties of the entire election season. If so, it will only serve to further a larger (and depressing) point about American politics: policy is boring. It's a snoozer with the public, for the most part. Every four years, the media does a horrible job covering policy differences, and they justify their horserace obsession by saying "that's not what the public wants to hear." The depressing part is they are quite likely right. The public does tune out when boring candidates discuss policy details.
The first Clinton-Trump debate set the historic record for television viewership for all presidential debates. The vice-presidential debate, to put it mildly, will not even come close to matching those ratings. Somewhere, Rodney Dangerfield is looking down on us from Comedian Heaven and muttering: "It don't get no respect."
-- Chris Weigant
Follow Chris on Twitter: @ChrisWeigant
I understand U2 will be doing the half time show and there will be clowns. Well, no, I fibbed about U2, but there will be clowns and maybe even a pony.
The clowns at the RNC declared Mike Pence the "clear winner" of the VP debate 90 minutes before it started.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/10/04/republican-national-committee-mike-pence-debate-winner/91576394/
Sent in the clowns a little early.
Watching the debate here..
http://www.democracynow.org/live/expanding_the_debate_october_4th_vice
[2] Kick
Personally, I thought Dewey won hands down.
Mic check!
[4] Chas,
Alas Poor Dewey, the "little man on the wedding cake." Always the bridesmaid but never the bride. :)
First Smack at Trump at 9:11 pm.
This looks to git nasty.
Kaine pounding on Trump, Pense on trying to defend..
Pence can finish his sentences. Trump can't. Don't make the boss look bad.
"He's going to release his tax returns when the audit is over." That's just utter bullshit.
Moderator presses a question!
Moderator moderates! I am shocked! Shocked!
Kaine is getting the better of Pence.
Moderator moderates, she's pretty good...
The "my uncle was a cop" and "people say bad things about cops" doesn't exactly answer the mod's question.
Get him, mod!
Yes. Rub trumps nose in the bigotry! Kaine knows his debate mission!
Pence is getting trashed, but he can finish his sentences. The press will call it a draw..
Best moderator so far this year.
Kaine is shredding Trump while Pence shakes his head. Kaine has not said a single thing that Trump didn't say. Pence's problem is he has no defense.
Kaine very effective on nukes. Pence responding with mumbles. Iraq secured in 2009.
Pure crap, garnished was with cheap sentimentality.
Pence waxing patriotic about the great America helping the "poor, helpless" in Aleppo, you know, the ones he wants to keep out of the State of Indiana because they are a terrorist threat and a danger to Americans. Pathetic, really.
Pence employs a simple strategy... lie.
A moderator who moderates? Wow! Next thing you know there might even be a timer... no, that's too much to hope for
Funniesst line of he evening - "whipped out that Mexican thing". Do tell...
Not a horrible night for team Trump, but Pence acts much more Presidential than Trump. That may be a problem.
Awaiting talkiing heads.
So there were long stretches of time where I have no idea what was actually said because Pence insisted on interrupting and then Kaine realized he would have to follow suit. Kaine was quoting Trump and Pence was denying that Trump said what Trump actually said. Pence lies multiple times.
Pence's denial of Trump's statements, all of which are recorded and can be played back will be catnip for the Clinton campaign, but most importantly for the networks, who will just love mining their archives for each one, even Faux news.
Undoubtedly, Pence just bumped Ted Cruz out of the role of darling of the religious right. That could shore up Trump's support among that group.
Pence decided to counter the perception that Trump is too pro-Putin by essentially threatening to go right to war against Russia in Syria. Ironic, since the question was, 'is America safer with Trump as President?' The answer is clearly no.
Best exchange of the evening was about abortion, where each participant was clearly speaking to core beliefs. Again Pence denied that Trump has suggested legal sanction against women, which will allow the networks to replay Trump's noxious comments on that topic during the primary.
No memorable lines from this debate, perhaps SNL can provide one.
Kaine did whip out that Mexican thing. Had to laugh at at that.
apophis [1] -
You remind me of the old joke about shoveling horsepoop: "there's just got to be a pony in here somewhere!"
Kick [2] -
Well, why wouldn't they? It wasn't like the debate itself would ever change their minds. Bet they called last Monday for Trump, too!
Heh.
:-)
chaszzzbrown [4] -
No, I think Douglas won the night...
Heh.
TheStig [11] -
Yeah, I'm with you. Google "Samuel Jackson debate moderator photo" to see an image my wife thought would be the perfect solution... heh.
TheStig [15] -
Dunno about best (there've only been two debates), but she did keep the subject flow moving along, I'll give her that. Still, Sam Jackson gets my vote...
TheStig [22] -
Agree.
For everyone --
Overall, here's my take on tonight:
Mike Pence spent tonight warming up his 2020 presidential campaign. By that measure, he did pretty good. He refused to defend the undefensable, which will cost him with the fact-checkers tomorrow morning. But he showed he is head and shoulders above Trump when it comes to being a candidate of a major party and debating (ie., finishing sentences).
Tim Kaine spent tonight trying to tie Pence to Trump. He largely succeeded on this front, but didn't impress otherwise.
The MSM seems to have come to the conclusion that "Kaine won on points, Pence won on style." Dunno if I'd agree with that, personally.
I think most of the debate was a draw, but that reflects my own boredom with these two guys. I did think Kaine clearly won the last 15 minutes, hands down. Starting at about when he said "you've ignored my list 6 times now" and working forward from that point. Kaine was in command, Pence was back on his heels.
But, overall, I don't think tonight will change many minds, one way or another.
For what it's worth, that's the impression I got.
-CW
Palin plays the woman card in response to the VP debate:
“How is it that the dudes lucked out and got chairs over the last 20 years of VP debates minus one?”
The Fox babe resents having been forced to stand for 90 minutes in heels.
Palin will be long remembered for a line she never actually uttered, which is kind of bizarre. And testament to Fey's comic genius, as well.
Actually, a testament to the dishonesty, gullibility and downright stoopid-ness of the Left Wingery...
"I can see Russia from my house"
"I can't breathe"
"Hands up, don't shoot"
All complete and utter bullshit, courtesy of the Left Wingery...
Michale
Of course ya'all thought that the moderator did great..
http://www.mrctv.org/blog/watch-cbs-moderator-repeatedly-attack-pence-vp-debate
She spent her time attacking the GOP, Trump and Pence...
Ya know, there was a time here when the WPG had at least a SEMBLANCE of fairness and bi-partisanship..
Those days are apparently gone forever.. :^/
Michale
People are talking. Some of them say that it was Donald who actually whipped out that Mexican Thing. I think it's terrible. Disgraceful. But some people say it was him. Sad!
Google has spoken.
"Whip out that Mexican thing" is now a thing...but not all it could be...or should be.
These are shards of lyrics that desperately need to be fleshed out and set to music. This could go in so many directions, thing rhyming with, well, so many things.
spring, sing, ding, king, fling, bring, ring, ping, bling, cling, sling, wing, wring ting and don't forget zing.
Light Opera, Heavy Opera, Klingon Opera. Broadway show tune, rap, rock, barbershop quartet.
"Oh darling I knew you were king,
When you whipped out that Mexican thing."
Google has spoken.
Yea... Gods forbid you should actually THINK for yerself.. :^/
Michale
M [32]
I think listening to Google is easier. :P
I think listening to Google is easier. :P
Most likely... The path of least resistance usually is.. :D
Michale
Interesting (if long) article on the election from an "educated" vs. "non-educated" perspective:
"Educated v less educated may be even more toxic than rich v poor, because it comes laden with assumptions of moral superiority. These days the rich find it quite hard to get away with the presumption that their wealth is proof of their virtue. When they seek protection from the system, it is pretty clear what they are up to: they are looking after their interests. But when the educated look out for themselves they can dress it up as something ostensibly better than that: expertise."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/05/trump-brexit-education-gap-tearing-politics-apart?CMP=fb_gu
RE: educated vs. less-educated
first, speaking as a career educator i must acknowledge that i'm completely and irrevocably biased.
yes, on the one hand it's true that it's easier for the "educated" to couch their own bias and self-interest in perceived expertise or intelligence. It's also easy for those who shared the same university experience to become caught in group-think, as those "in the know" fail to challenge the axioms underlying their consensus. case in point, many university communities support the BDS movement against israel nearly without dissent, but are completely misinformed on the roots of the conflict, the way it unfolded and the most likely impact of their actions on the middle east.
however, in spite of all that can go wrong, people who are more educated generally do know more and have more experience in critical thinking than those who aren't. The educated tend to be more likely to have heard relevant information and more able to apply it accurately to a situation. The educated are less likely to fall into traps of logical fallacy, and more likely to notice and accept those occasions on which they do.
in my view, there needs to be a balance between on the one hand respecting the fact that education makes one more likely to be informed and correct, and on the other hand making sure all the critical thinking we learn at university is turned inward as well as outward.
RE: moderators actually moderating
personally i think the timing aspect of moderating debates should be automated. when your time runs out, your mike turns off, and the questioner is prompted to ask follow-ups. no complaints, no excuses.
JL
Palin will be long remembered for a line she never actually uttered, which is kind of bizarre. And testament to Fey's comic genius, as well.
as picasso once said,
“We all know that Art is not truth. Art is a lie that makes us realize truth; at least the truth that is given us to understand. The artist must know the manner whereby to convince others of the truthfulness of his lies.”
JL