Trump Blinks
Today, Donald Trump signed an executive order to end his own policy of forcing the separation of children from families seeking asylum in America, because his initial position had become so untenable (indeed, downright unbelievable) that his political allies were fleeing like rats from a sinking ship. By this afternoon, there were plenty of other metaphors flying fast and thick: Trump blinked; he waved the white flag; he surrendered; he caved; he backed down; he threw in the towel; he bent to reality. Whichever you choose, the underlying reality is the same: President Donald Trump, in a rare occurrence, was forced today to take an action that proves both he and his aides have been flat-out lying to the American public for days on end. There's just no other way to look at it, and in fact it may be unprecedented for Trump. He's been telling anyone who would listen that he alone could not do anything, and that his hands were tied -- Congress would need to act. Now he has proved himself wrong on that front. He acted, which means he could have done so at any point if he truly had cared about the issue at all. What forced him to act was the overwhelmingly negative and relentless coverage he was receiving in the media, and the flight of his allies in the Republican Party. Today, this all became too much for Trump, so he did what he could have done all along, thus putting the lie to his voluminous statements to the contrary.
Trump's new order doesn't solve much of anything, though, other than trying to get all those videos of children wailing in terror off of Trump's television screen. But the way in which Trump acted almost guarantees to make an already messy situation a whole lot messier. This is about par for Trump's course, it bears mentioning, since he can't seem to weigh in on an issue without making things worse all around. Call it the Three Stooges philosophy of management, if you will.
Or perhaps a different golden age of slapstick comedy example is more appropriate. Laurel and Hardy's best-known catchphrase: "Well, here's another nice mess you've gotten me into" seems fairly appropriate, as Trump vainly (in both senses of the word) tried to blame congressional Democrats for a policy of his own making. Nobody bought this spin, but even so it is remarkable to see Trump have to walk away from it in such dramatic fashion.
Of course, the Trump administration itself could never quite agree on what the policy was supposed to achieve, or even (at times) whether the policy existed at all. "Zero tolerance," announced with much fanfare a while back by Attorney General Jeff Sessions, was supposed to be a deterrent to families thinking about traveling to the U.S. border. The threat of being removed from your children was used as a fear tactic. Or it wasn't -- there was no intent to use the policy as a deterrent at all, insisted others. Secretary of Homeland Security Kirstjen Nielsen bizarrely claimed there was no child separation policy at all, channeling her inner Sergeant Schultz ("I see nothing... nothing!"). Nobody believed that for a minute, but still, she persisted. Congress had passed laws which forced Trump to separate children from their families, and this was somehow all Democrats' fault. Trump couldn't change a policy he himself introduced, because... um... well, they never really addressed this one, did they? But Trump absolutely needed Congress to act. Right up until he decided he didn't.
The entire fiasco was a massive and notable failure of a very cynical political tactic. Trump and Sessions were going to create a crisis on the border, and then use this as leverage to get Democrats to join with a Republican immigration reform bill which gave Trump everything he was asking for (including all the money to build the wall Mexico was supposed to pay for). This would be a political triumph for Trump, as Democrats cowered in fear and voted with Republicans to put the measure on his desk.
This, obviously, is not what happened. In reality, Paul Ryan can't even get enough Republicans to vote for the intended bill, and if it actually comes to a vote later this week, it is quite likely to fail. Ryan has promised this vote will happen, so it'll be interesting to see whether he goes through with it, because if it fails it will be a huge embarrassment for both him and his caucus. This, in a chamber where Republicans have a solid majority, mind you. Due to the incredible outcry over the Trump "zero tolerance" policy from the media and the public, Ryan was forced to add a "don't inhumanely put babies in internment camps" clause to the bill, at the last moment. By this point, Republicans from both houses were in open revolt against Trump's child separation policy, and some were even publicly admitting that Trump could get rid of this with a single phone call to Jeff Sessions. A standalone "don't break up the families" bill was on the horizon in both houses of Congress, which was not exactly what Trump had planned for.
So instead, Trump caved. But the way he chose to do so isn't really going to solve anything. His executive order is dubious, legally, and is almost certain to be challenged in court even if nothing else changes. Congress could change the underlying law to accommodate Trump's new executive order, but their performance this week doesn't exactly fill one with confidence that they'll actually be able to pass such a bill. For now, Trump has gone from jailing people (for what used to be treated as a very minor crime) while stripping their children away from them, so the kids can be jailed separately (sometimes thousands of miles away from their parents) -- to now jailing whole families for a minor crime, who can then share a cell together. That is not much of an improvement, as should be plain to see. But at least the wailing children videos might cease on Trump's television screen (that's his hope, at any rate).
Trump's order, in reality, is going to make things much worse, but that was always going to be a side effect of his zero tolerance policy to begin with. It's not a bug, it's a feature, in other words.
Here was the situation before the zero tolerance policy came into being: people wishing to claim political asylum in America could do so at border crossings. However, there were a very limited amount of agents to process these claims, which led to long lines and plenty of people being turned away each day. Sometimes, for no real reason, the border facility wouldn't allow anyone to claim asylum that particular day. However the families couldn't just hang around the border entry station indefinitely because then the Mexican authorities would likely arrest them. So their only other choice was sneaking across the border. Many of these people immediately turned themselves in to the Border Patrol, even seeking them out after crossing, because they knew this was the next step in the process of claiming asylum. The minor crime of illegally crossing the border was not muscularly prosecuted because the system prioritized harsh treatment for people like human smugglers and drug couriers and gang members and even people crossing the border for purely economic reasons (not claiming asylum, in other words). There is a limited amount of judicial system resources, so they were mostly focused on high-profile cases. Asylum claimants were given a court date to make their claim in front of a judge, and released with their children intact. Most kept these court dates, because they wanted legitimate status as a political refugee.
That was then. Now, the zero tolerance policy states that every person caught crossing the border illegally be treated the same -- and as harshly as possible, for what is essentially a misdemeanor. Even refugees got the same treatment -- lock them up until they can see a judge. While they're locked up, their children must be separated from them. If there are too many people seeking asylum, then close the doors at that border crossing station to deter them. This forces more and more people into the choice of wading across the Rio Grande rather than entering legally, which just exacerbates the problem further.
The only part of this which Trump's executive order changes is that now the children won't be housed in separate jails, but rather in the same jail cell as their parents. Rather than backing down on the zero tolerance policy, Trump is actually doubling down on it. But there's a growing problem with this approach, and that is that it will strain the resources of the immigration system beyond all capacity.
Trump, incredibly, doesn't see this as a problem. He actually went out of his way to ridicule a bill by Ted Cruz, because Cruz quite reasonably wanted to increase the number of judges slated to hear these cases -- to do something about the backlog, in other words, so that claimants wouldn't have to wait so long to have their day in court. Cruz is from Texas, and knows full well how the system will quickly become overwhelmed when prosecutorial discretion is thrown out the window. But Trump doesn't think he needs more judges, and indeed denigrated the very idea.
Instead, it has already been reported that $7 billion that was supposed to go to border security is hastily being spent on building new facilities to hold the increased load of people being locked up. This is just the tip of this particular iceberg, since the longer zero tolerance goes on, the bigger the backlog is going to get (especially with no new judges to handle the increased caseload). And it's not even certain that warehousing families is legal, especially in the hastily-constructed cages we've already seen being used for children. If new facilities to hold entire families resemble these horrific images at all, the political blowback is just going to continue. The new photos will be of whole families rather than children, but they will be just as horrific and abhorrent to American values. So politically, Trump backing down might even turn into a wash for him. Cages are cages, whether they hold kids or whole families, after all.
There's a very obvious answer to the entire problem, but it wouldn't score any political points for Trump or the Republican Party, so it's doubtful it will even be considered. Instead of spending billions to build family internment camps in the desert, instead of forcing seekers of asylum into horrific choices, why not just fix the problem at its root? Spend the money instead on hiring and training more border agents whose sole job it is to process refugee claims. End the impossibly-long lines at the border entry stations, and nobody would have to enter illegally. At the border station, paperwork could be processed and the families released to await their hearing before a judge. This would all but eliminate the need for anyone to choose to cross the border illegally -- at least, for those with valid claims of persecution back home (some will always sneak over and then claim, if caught, to be asylum seekers -- but this will be a much harder argument for them to make if the border crossing station has no line). If this problem were fixed by throwing the resources at the front line workers who initially process the cases, then the rest of the problem would largely disappear. Trump could even keep his zero tolerance policy, if there were never a line for refugees longer than an hour or two, at most.
The people with valid asylum claims really don't want to break the law. They are eager to get their claims heard by a judge. It is in no way illegal for them to present themselves at a U.S. border to make their asylum claim -- this is basic international law, no matter how much Trump and the Republicans may hate it.
Rather than take the commonsense action to solve the problem where it really originates -- in those impossibly-long lines at the border -- Trump is going to make the problem even worse. Resources are going to be directed to more border enforcement and newer and bigger jails and internment camps. This will drain the system of resources that could be used more intelligently to actually solve the problem.
But at least those wailing children won't interrupt Donald Trump's television morning time (or Kirstjen Nielsen's ability to go out to a Mexican restaurant in public, for that matter). That's really the only problem Trump is trying to solve today, when you get right down to it.
-- Chris Weigant
Follow Chris on Twitter: @ChrisWeigant
The only part of this which Trump's executive order changes is that now the children won't be housed in separate jails, but rather in the same jail cell as their parents. Rather than backing down on the zero tolerance policy, Trump is actually doubling down on it. But there's a growing problem with this approach, and that is that it will strain the resources of the immigration system beyond all capacity.
Democrats got what they wanted..
Now children will be held with their parents in an ADULT criminal detention facility..
And when children are assaulted and raped by adults in an ADULT criminal detention facility, ALL of the blame will fall on Democrats and NeverTrumpers
Great job, Democrats.. President Trump has just maneuvered the entirety of the Democrat Party to be responsible for the carnage...
And it ALL could be avoided if illegal immigrants would simply OBEY OUR LAWS...
However the families couldn't just hang around the border entry station indefinitely because then the Mexican authorities would likely arrest them.
And why would Mexican authorities arrest them??
BECAUSE THEY ARE BREAKING THE LAW
It all boils down to one simple FACT..
THEY ARE CRIMINALS WHO ARE BREAKING THE LAW...
It's simple.. We just have to look to Jim Carrey for wisdom... If they don't want to be treated like this..
"QUIT BREAKING THE LAW ASSHOLE!!"
Oh, but they are just trying to better their lives for themselves and/or their families!!?? cry the bleeding hearts...
So is the scumbag who robs a bank.. He is just trying to better his life...
The scumbag who murderers a cheating deadbeat husband.... SHE is just trying to better her life...
It's all very simple...
If one doesn't want to be treated like a criminal, one should... take it away Jim Carrey...
"QUIT BREAKING THE LAW ASSHOLE"
President Trump has just maneuvered the entire Democrat Party into being at fault for ALL that is to come..
Trump let his white-supremacist specialists put this program together. They have worked on this for months - they signed contracts with various vendors to house the asylum-seekers, etc. This didn't just happen.
Blotus may not have given a damn about the technicalities - he let others handle all that, as usual. Now that it's blowing up he's trying to "look tough" for his nazi-base, while trying to get out from under the relentless bad coverage he's getting.
His Executive Order wasn't necessary - he could have ended the policy with a phone call. And his EO had a big ol' misspelling on the cover-page because he doesn't have competent staffing to handle anything.
His "policy" will be a mess - a sloppy mishmash that will end up in court. And it does NOTHING to help the children already kidnapped from their parents.
They're planning to put kids - 20 in tents - in 106 degrees. They're drugging some of them. They're sending them all over the country. There was a story about girls being taken into a building last night in NY, with bags over their heads. Goddamned bags over their heads - why? So they can't later ID the bastards who will probably molest them? Or beat them? Or drug them?
They're using techniques perfected in Nazi Germany and communist Russia. Y'know - bastions of good old American values.
This administration is so far beneath contempt I can't summon the words to describe the depths.
CW: Today, Donald Trump signed an executive order to end his own policy of forcing the separation of children from families seeking asylum in America, because his initial position had become so untenable (indeed, downright unbelievable) that his political allies were fleeing like rats from a sinking ship.
The Trumptanic hit at ICE-berg. :)
Meanwhile: Michael Cohen's new lawyer works for a firm filled with former FBIers who worked with Preet Bharara and Robert Mueller, as he is himself.
Methinks I smell a plea deal being constructed.
[1] Michale
"Now children will be held with their parents in an ADULT criminal detention facility.."
NO, they will NOT. They WILL be held in a FAMILY criminal detention facility, with OTHER FAMILIES, consisting of other men, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN, like themselves, in many cases specifically built for that SOLE purpose. NOT a FORMERLY ALL MALE ADULT criminal facility for VIOLENT offenders as you hysterically claim.
"And when children are assaulted and raped by adults in an ADULT criminal detention facility, ALL of the blame will fall on Democrats and NeverTrumpers"
FACTS to support this HYSTERICAL claim?
Since when is a former WALMART store turned detention facility equivalent to Chino, Rikers Island, Attica, Folsom, or San Quentin?
Three Stooges Stooges Style of Management - that is just about perfect. Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck
This is hilarious: https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1009621110411931648
A group is petitioning DC to revoke the Trump hotel’s liquor license on the grounds that he doesn’t meet the “good character” license requirement.
With screenshot of the filing - done by DC residents, former clergy and judges.
Michale
1
President Trump has just maneuvered the entire Democrat Party into being at fault for ALL that is to come..
Like that ship hadn't sailed a long, long time ago. Trump, Fox News, and their ilk have been spewing that load of garbage for quite awhile already.
Trump and the right-wing echo chamber continuing to blame Democrats for their own policy change wouldn't exactly be something they "just maneuvered" since it's just more of the same old right-wing propaganda as per their usual.
If Trump blaming the Democrats for his own policy was working out well for him, there would have been no need whatsoever for Trump to reverse course and sign the Executive Order that changed his own policy. While there were occasional instances where there was a trafficking situation or concern that the parent wasn’t actually the parent where temporary separation was necessary, there was no widespread policy during the Obama administration that separated parents and children. That policy was the handiwork of the Trump administration.
So to recap:
** The Trump Administration could have ended their new policy of family separation whenever they wanted... as evidenced by the Executive Order signed by Trump today.
** The Executive Branch as well as the House and Senate are controlled by Republicans.
** Regardless of the facts above, the rhetoric from the talking heads on Fox News as well as the froth out of the Orange Blowhole is that Democrats have created this family separation problem and that's why Trump and congressional Republicans can't do a thing in order to fix it.
How gullible does one have to be to believe the obvious bullspit that BLOTUS and right-wing propaganda media and their minions are spewing?
** Interesting Correspondence of the Day **
This one is precious.
In his email to RNC Chair Ronna McDaniel wherein he resigns as deputy finance chair of the RNC's finance committee, Michael Cohen included language wherein he disagreed with the family separations that have happened as a result of the Trump administration’s "zero tolerance" policy:
Sounds like Mikey doesn't approve of the actions of Hair Dick-Tater. Anybody want to bet me that Mikey might actually turn out to be a hero in all of this mess? Because Mikey lots of "things," and:
Mikey's gonna flip.
Mikey's gonna flip.
Mikey's gonna flip.
They always do. :)
Either that or Mikey's going to spend a very, very long time in prison. It's those pesky New York state crimes that simply cannot and therefore will not be receiving any pardons.
"As the son of a Polish holocaust survivor, the images and sounds of this family separation policy is heart wrenching. While I strongly support measures that will secure our porous borders, children should never be used as bargaining chips."
Except for the FACT that Democrats used the children of DACA as "bargaining chips" during the shut down..
And then TOTALLY sold them out..
NO, they will NOT. They WILL be held in a FAMILY criminal detention facility, with OTHER FAMILIES, consisting of other men, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN, like themselves, in many cases specifically built for that SOLE purpose. NOT a FORMERLY ALL MALE ADULT criminal facility for VIOLENT offenders as you hysterically claim.
Facts to support?? :D
Face reality, JM....
Democrats got played... Just like they got played over their DACA BS...
President Trump maneuvered the Democrats, then gave the Democrats EXACTLY what they wanted.. Children will be in GenPop of an ADULT criminal detention facility and the ensuing mess will be ALL the fault of the Democrat Party because they demanded it...
https://www.americandailynews.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Screen-Shot-2018-06-15-at-10.06.06-AM.png
The Obama Administration separated children from their families and put them in small cages..
Once again, I have to ask??
Where was the outrage from the Hysterical Left Wingery???
https://twitter.com/joshgremillion/status/1008713045474992135/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.infowars.com%2Fhypocrisy-obama-leverages-illegal-detentions-to-campaign-against-trump%2F
Separated children placed in wire-fence cages...
8 Jun 2014...
POTUS: Barack Obama
Where was the outrage then???
“WE SHOULD RIP BARRON TRUMP FROM HIS MOTHER’S ARMS AND PUT HIM IN A CAGE WITH PEDOPHILES AND SEE IF MOTHER WILL WILL STAND UP AGAINST THE GIANT ASSHOLE SHE IS MARRIED TO,”
-Peter Fonda
Where is the outrage, my fellow Weigantians???
The Trump Administration could have ended their new policy of family separation whenever they wanted... as evidenced by the Executive Order signed by Trump today.
But according to CW, President Trump, by signing the EO, didn't "end" anything..
According to CW, President Trump DOUBLED DOWN on the issue..
So, how is "doubling down" on it "ending" it??
Paula,
Methinks I smell a plea deal being constructed.
Yes, you always thinks that..
And yet, you have ALWAYS been wrong.. :D
"It's gonna happen!! You watch!!! Trump is going to be impeached and then jailed!! It's gonna happen!! Any day now!! You watch!!! Here it comes!!!"
:D
You crack me up, Paula.. :D
“WE SHOULD RIP BARRON TRUMP FROM HIS MOTHER’S ARMS AND PUT HIM IN A CAGE WITH PEDOPHILES AND SEE IF MOTHER WILL WILL STAND UP AGAINST THE GIANT ASSHOLE SHE IS MARRIED TO,”
-Peter Fonda
Where is the outrage, my fellow Weigantians???
As the Left established at Charlottesville, SILENCE GIVES ASSENT...
So, where is the outrage??
JM,
NO, they will NOT. They WILL be held in a FAMILY criminal detention facility, with OTHER FAMILIES, consisting of other men, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN, like themselves, in many cases specifically built for that SOLE purpose. NOT a FORMERLY ALL MALE ADULT criminal facility for VIOLENT offenders as you hysterically claim.
Can we please stay away from personal attacks?? I didn't "hysterically claim" anything...
Since when is a former WALMART store turned detention facility equivalent to Chino, Rikers Island, Attica, Folsom, or San Quentin?
Since it houses "children" like these:
https://the-criminal.ru/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/The-Violent-Terrifying-Gangs-Of-El-Salvador-16.jpg
https://am12.akamaized.net/med/cnt/uploads/2018/06/trump-abc-news-manafort-1200x675.jpg
This is EXACTLY why it's impossible to believe ANYTHING coming out of the Leftist MSM...
Let's start the day off with humor. Headline from The Onion:
Political Scientists Baffled By Trump’s Ability To End Something He Had No Control Over Just Days Ago
:D
Let's start the day off with humor. Headline from The Onion:
Political Scientists Baffled By Trump’s Ability To End Something He Had No Control Over Just Days Ago
You mean, like when Obama told a group of illegal immigration activists that he can't change the law...
Right before he went and changed the law??
Yer right.. Funny.. :D
CW,
I have to give you credit...
You make two diametrically opposed statements but, somehow, you make it work... :D
THAT takes talent.. :D
You mean, like when Obama told a group of illegal immigration activists that he can't change the law...
Right before he went and changed the law??
And then Obama turned around and BRAGGED that he changed the law....
Knee-slappin' hilarious... :D
Liz-
I don't think your politeness initiative is working. I respect your effort (and your viewpoints) - but the hate speech and baiting is rising rapidly.
I think there is a very simple reason for this. Human beings find it very hard to be polite without eye contact. It's wired into our brains-unless you are psychopath.
Some participants want to turn this forum into a debating society, but what you going to get is a frat house level of debate. A real debating society has strict written rules and they are enforced by referees. This blog has neither. The internet is not that kind of animal.
In my experience, the only effective moderator of bad blog behavior is don't feed the trolls. I am going (rigorously) back to that policy. Everybody else is free to do whatever they like (duh, it's THE INTERNET!) If I find you offensive, or boring, illogical or unencumbered by facts I will not bother to reason with you for very long, I will simply block you. Toss all the bricks at me you want....or ignore me back. It's your call. I could care less. I have a very rich life without you. I'm mostly here for the columns.
I don't think your politeness initiative is working. I respect your effort (and your viewpoints) - but the hate speech and baiting is rising rapidly.
Only based how how YOU define hate speech and baiting..
You obviously define it as anything anyone says that opposes your view or you disagree with..
Your interaction With CRS vis a vis your NON interaction with Paula proves that beyond any doubt..
I think there is a very simple reason for this. Human beings find it very hard to be polite without eye contact. It's wired into our brains-unless you are psychopath.
Well, then I must be a psychopath because I have NO PROBLEM being polite to someone on the internet without eye contact..
I treat people on the INternet EXACTLY how I treat people in real life..
I treat them in the manner they treat me..
<Some participants want to turn this forum into a debating society, but what you going to get is a frat house level of debate. A real debating society has strict written rules and they are enforced by referees. This blog has neither.
And that's the point. It SHOULD because the personal attacks and name-calling has gotten out of hand..
In my experience, the only effective moderator of bad blog behavior is don't feed the trolls. I am going (rigorously) back to that policy.
Again??? What's this? The 10th?? 11th?? time?? :D
Back to politics.
CW-As of this AM I am not sure Trump has surrendered or folded. I think it may be more of an end run around the press and public opinion. That is sooo Trumpish. Gov. Cuomo is right...it's going to be settled in the courts...and the State of NY is headed there.
I treat people on the INternet EXACTLY how I treat people in real life..
Well, I do have an extra step when dealing with people in real life..
"Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet."
-General "MadDog" Mattis
:D
CW-As of this AM I am not sure Trump has surrendered or folded. I think it may be more of an end run around the press and public opinion. That is sooo Trumpish.
Exactly...
President Trump didn't cave. He didn't blink..
He is simply maneuvering the Democrat Party so that it will all blow up in their faces.. :D
Gods, I am sooo glad we elected President Trump!!!
Going along with with TS said and taking it a step further, it's not completely outside the realm of possibility that this entire issue has been scripted by President Trump from day one..
I mean, think about it..
President Trump lets it all roil and boil for several days, gets the hysterical NeverTrumpers in a froth absolutely red-faced with hysteria and then... BOOM...
President Trump lowers the boom signing the order giving the Democrats exactly what they want...
Now that Democrats have EXACTLY what they have been screaming for, NOW Democrats scramble to move the goal posts and changes the tune to something different..
President Trump gave the Democrats EXACTLY what they asked for and NOW Democrats are screaming, "He's doubling down!!! He gave us everything we asked for and now it's worse!!!"
Once again.. The *ONLY* logical and rational conclusions is that Democrats and NeverTrumpers have been played... AGAIN :D
And now we see Democrats on the various news programs throwing up their word salad in a vain effort to explain why they oppose President Trump's EO and will fight AGAINST keeping children with their parents..
:D
Ya just gotta love the Democrat Party..
They NEVER miss a chance to step on their wee-wee...
Well it seems like Michale is still wetting his pants trying to convince himself that stealing kids from their parents is the new Republican way and we should all be glad about it.
On a positive note the fundraiser for RIACES is over the $15M goal and they are now aiming for $20M. The money goes to help provide legal services for the kids and their families.
CRS must be back on his meds after his racist breakdown a couple of days ago - maybe somebody in his family explained to him that his immigrant ancestors were also vilified and hated when they first arrived (Central Americans are only the latest chapter in a long history of being undesirable immigrants - we all remember the "No Irish" signs, less well remembered was the lynching of Italians, the burning of Scots' churches to force them out, etc.).
In his family research he probably discovered an uncomfortable fact. The reason that America is predominantly white is because in those days it was the "light complexioned" who were escaping death in their home countries (e.g. the potato famine and the highland clearances).
Another day, another fiasco in the White House - who will Trump play today now he has decided that "King Herod" isn't such a good role model after all. Back to reliable old "arms crossed, chin up, pouting" Mussolini probably - he was in full Benito mode in the picture from the G7 last week (remember that?).
CRS must be back on his meds after his racist breakdown a couple of days ago
Can't you say what you want to say without personal attacks???
You can spin it all you want.. Turn it into a money maker with the faux "charity"....
But the simple fact is, Democrats got played. Now they are going to argue AGAINST the very thing they were arguing FOR yesterday...
Yep.. They got played.. BIG TIME... :D
The Reality of Populism Hits Home in the U.K.
Britain, long an agile, fast growing economy in a moribund Europe is sinking. Growth has dropped from 2.4% in 2015 (easily the fastest of the G7 excluding the U.S.) to under 1.5% in 2018. At the same time all the other G7 countries have increased growth, and Britain is on par with Japan and Italy, way behind Canada, Germany and France.
Inflation is over 3% and wages are stagnant, so most Brits are going backwards.
This is what happens when venal politicians tell lies and voters get all emotional. Trump seems to think that economics doesn't apply to him and he can run a trade war without impacting the U.S. economy. He is wrong and the markets will explain that in simple terms to anybody willing to learn. Trump will, of course, blame the Democrats for forcing him to impose tariffs, but will surrender in the trade war when his party revolts - China has now imposed tariffs on the whole U.S. Ag industry - remember Trump's map with all the red counties on it even though he lost the popular vote by 3M people? What industry do you think needs a lot of land and few people?
Of course, the emotional people here are too personally invested to ever accept reality and will claim Trump is playing 5 dimensional chess, when it is obvious to everybody else that he is just throwing the checkers board up in the air because he is losing so badly.
"The Economist" explains the U.K. situation:
https://www.economist.com/britain/2018/06/21/the-economy-has-slowed-to-a-standstill-largely-because-of-brexit
[13] Michale
"Facts to support?? :D"
YES. Photos on TV of the tent cities the Trump administration is NOW building to house families in detention.
REBUTTAL? Cue the crickets in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ....
[21] Michale
"Since it houses "children" like these:"
FACTS to support that that is anything BUT a random photo pulled from who knows where NOT showing any actual children being detained?
Can we PLEASE stay away from YOUR FEAR MONGERING BULLSHIT?
Of course, the emotional people here are too personally invested to ever accept reality and will claim Trump is playing 5 dimensional chess, when it is obvious to everybody else that he is just throwing the checkers board up in the air because he is losing so badly.
You keep saying that Neil.. Yet his poll numbers don't reflect that??
How do you explain that??
FACTS to support that that is anything BUT a random photo pulled from who knows where NOT showing any actual children being detained?
Actually, it does.. But I understand why you have to deny it..
Or, are you denying that MS-13 doesn't exist??
I don't understand why you are so upset, JM...
The Democrats got what they wanted..
Children in adult detention facilities and no regard for the REAL possibility that they are being held with child-sex traffickers..
You should be ecstatic that President Trump gave the Democrats everything they asked for..
[20] Michale
"Can we please stay away from personal attacks?? I didn't "hysterically claim" anything..."
A characterization of your statement is NOT in any way, shape or form a person attack on you. It is simply a statement of FACT.
When you put out a statement designed to get a visceral emotional response and do it in bold, all caps, dark, font type, that amounts to nothing more than wild speculation unsupported by ANY concrete FACTS...I think calling it "hysterical" is a fair characterization, is it not?
If you then somehow think that is a reflection on YOU personally... well it IS psychologically interesting that YOU are the only one specifically making that statement.
Or, are you denying that MS-13 doesn't exist??
Woops.. double negative with a half gainor there.. :D
Do you deny that MS-13 exists..
[44] Michale
"Actually, it does.. But I understand why you have to deny it..
Or, are you denying that MS-13 doesn't exist??"
And I UNDERSTAND why you have to push this FALSE narrative.
Just like Trump has to push the notion that ALL Mexicans ARE RAPISTS.
Or are YOU denying that TODDLERS younger than 10 years old held in detention by the U.S. government, are NOT MS-13 gang members? Or is a 3 year old drinking from a baby bottle now a THREAT?
A characterization of your statement is NOT in any way, shape or form a person attack on you. It is simply a statement of FACT.
No, it's your OPINION..
I think calling it "hysterical" is a fair characterization, is it not?
Right.. You THINK.. ergo opinion... Not fact..
If you then somehow think that is a reflection on YOU personally... well it IS psychologically interesting that YOU are the only one specifically making that statement.
And if YOU think that I am the only one who makes that kind of statement, that something said is a reflection of the person, personally..... :D well.. I cannot help you..
YOu see, that is the inherent problem here..
Ya'all want a set of rules and conduct/etiquette for others.. But you don't want to abide by those same rules yerselves..
"Rules for thee, but not for me"
Is that a Democrat thing??
Just like Trump has to push the notion that ALL Mexicans ARE RAPISTS.
Now look who is making things up.. :D Like I said.. One set of rules for me that you don't have to abide by.. :D
President Trump never pushed that notion..
Can we PLEASE stay away from YOUR FEAR MONGERING BULLSHIT?
This is the nonsense that waaaay too many Americans are exposed to constantly and actually believe. Michale isn't trolling you - he really is this gullible.
I look at it as a quick glimpse into the minds of the deranged - you can't counter what you don't know about. It is sort of like a PSA for the educated and intelligent about the reality of critical thinking in America in 2018.
Everybody I know, including everybody in my family and my wife's family have at least a Bachelors degree, and many have Masters or Doctorates. I hang out with friends who all have advanced degrees. It is only though my old soccer team that I know cops and store clerks, etc.
Here is the secret that Michale doesn't want everybody to know: if you don't care about his gloating then he just becomes a jibbering pixel filler who occasionally acts as an insight into the deranged groupthink of the right wing in 2018 (no offense buddy).
Or are YOU denying that TODDLERS younger than 10 years old held in detention by the U.S. government, are NOT MS-13 gang members?
Teen members of feared MS-13 gang who admitted to torture and murder among child immigrants at border center and 'are trying to recruit others'
Gang members spotted after graffiti bearing their symbols was left in border center bathroom
16 teenagers identified as being part of MS-13 are in Arizona center
Under law, border agents are unable to expel the dangerous group
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2690223/Teen-members-feared-MS-13-gang-admitted-torture-murder-trying-recruit-young-illegal-immigrants-border-center-U-S-powerless-stop-them.html
Deny the threat all you want..
That is EXACTLY how the Kate Steinles of this country get brutally murdered..
This is the nonsense that waaaay too many Americans are exposed to constantly and actually believe. Michale isn't trolling you - he really is this gullible.
And again with the personal attacks.. :^/
You see the problem, Liz???
Personal attacks and name-calling are just too ingrained with this group of Weigantians...
The rules need to be enforceable or there is just anarchy..
[50] Michale
"Just like Trump has to push the notion that ALL Mexicans ARE RAPISTS.
Now look who is making things up.. :D Like I said.. One set of rules for me that you don't have to abide by.. :D
President Trump never pushed that notion.."
OH???
DIRECT quote from TRUMP from Trump Tower, June 2015:
"The US has become a dumping ground for everybody else's problems. Thank you. It's true, and these are the best and the finest. When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists."
[52] Michale
"Or are YOU denying that TODDLERS younger than 10 years old held in detention by the U.S. government, are NOT MS-13 gang members?
Teen members of feared MS-13 gang who admitted to torture and murder among child immigrants at border center and 'are trying to recruit others'
Gang members spotted after graffiti bearing their symbols was left in border center bathroom
16 teenagers identified as being part of MS-13 are in Arizona center
Under law, border agents are unable to expel the dangerous group
Deny the threat all you want"
I am NOT denying anything.
But apparently YOU are.
As we were discussing TODDLERS, NOT TEENAGERS.
YOUR own article that you CITE and provided a LINK to states:
"Although the gang members are aged from 15 to 17, they admitted to being involved in disturbing acts of violence."
Get that Michale? 15 to 17 year olds. NOT TODDLERS under 10.
JM,
DIRECT quote from TRUMP from Trump Tower, June 2015:
Yes, that IS the "direct quote"...
But it's not the WHOLE quote.. You don't post that because the WHOLE quote totally demolishes your position.
This is EXACTLY what I am talking about.. You cherry pick your quotes to make it say something you KNOW it doesn't really say...
Here is the WHOLE quote...
The U.S. has become a dumping ground for everybody else’s problems. Thank you. It’s true, and these are the best and the finest. When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.
But I speak to border guards and they tell us what we’re getting. And it only makes common sense. It only makes common sense. They’re sending us not the right people. It’s coming from more than Mexico. It’s coming from all over South and Latin America, and it’s coming probably — probably — from the Middle East. But we don’t know. Because we have no protection and we have no competence, we don’t know what’s happening. And it’s got to stop and it’s got to stop fast.
By referring to "Border Guards" Trump was obviously referring to ILLEGALs that "Mexico is sending us"....
You see??
You CAN'T win with the facts.. You can only make a showing with cherry picked out of context quotes..
It's the animals = MS13 BS all over again.. It's the Trump is a racist BS all over again..
You CAN'T win with the facts...
As we were discussing TODDLERS, NOT TEENAGERS.
No, we were discussing up to 10 years old..
The EXACT kids that MS-13 is trying to recruit..
Once again.. FACTS...
vs Ostrich tactics..
"Although the gang members are aged from 15 to 17, they admitted to being involved in disturbing acts of violence."
Get that Michale? 15 to 17 year olds.
Yes.. 15-17 yr olds trying to recruit young kids...
You just can't win, JM.. I have the facts and reality on my side...
[59] Michale
"Yes.. 15-17 yr olds trying to recruit young kids...
You just can't win, JM.. I have the facts and reality on my side..."
Whatever makes you feel better Michale and helps you sleep at night, no matter how divorced from reality that it really is. You obviously can think whatever you want. I can't help you if you aren't open to reason and to changing your mind.
You obviously can think whatever you want. I can't help you if you aren't open to reason and to changing your mind.
It's ya'all's concept of "reason" that is the issue..
But I REALLY have to get some work done.. This new found detente here in Weigantia is making things fun here again..
But I have to get some work done.. TTFN :D
[16] Michale
“WE SHOULD RIP BARRON TRUMP FROM HIS MOTHER’S ARMS AND PUT HIM IN A CAGE WITH PEDOPHILES AND SEE IF MOTHER WILL WILL STAND UP AGAINST THE GIANT ASSHOLE SHE IS MARRIED TO,”
-Peter Fonda
Where is the outrage, my fellow Weigantians???
WHY don't YOU follow this up???
“I tweeted something highly inappropriate and vulgar about the president and his family in response to the devastating images I was seeing on television,” Fonda said in a statement to USA Today. “Like many Americans, I am very impassioned and distraught over the situation with children separated from their families at the border, but I went way too far. It was wrong and I should not have done it. I immediately regretted it and sincerely apologize to the family for what I said and any hurt my words have caused.”
- Peter Fonda
Jon Chait put it well: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/06/lessons-from-the-trump-family-separation-fiasco.html
...Trump is facing the inevitable dilemma of a populist leader: He was elected promising easy solutions, and is discovering none exist. He has not built a wall, and Mexico has not paid for it. Instead, he is reduced to complaining about the status quo in the same terms he used as a candidate, saying things like, “We have the worst immigration laws in the entire world by far. Other countries laugh at us.” Those are the laws he promised to fix...The damage of Trump’s horrific policy cannot be fully undone. But, in the face of his every instinct, Trump was forced to retreat. He didn’t want to look weak, but he does, because he is."
Another big part of this story is that the nazi-administration set up all kinds of deals with Betsy DeVos and ilk related companies, private prisons and other scum-companies, to transport and house these hostages. They're all making money and they are deliberately breaking the chain of custody to keep these families separated. There's deliberate cruelty and profit-by-sociopaths going on.
So Blotus' contribution to Steven Miller's (aided by Kelly and Sessions') white supremacist policy was to let companies (who probably paid him bribes through one of his many meetings at his fucking golf courses) to profit from their child-kidnapping extortion scheme.
"Propaganda does not deceive people; it merely helps them to deceive themselves." - Eric Hoffer.
Trumpers WANT the excuses to be thugs. They WANT justifications to be thugs. They don't care how stupid or dishonest or contradictory the justifications are. They just want to be able to bully with impunity.
[1] Michale -
What law are these refugees breaking, michale? What exactly is the wording of that law? Where is that law in the US Code?
ALSO: Why should we believe in this EO? DT claims to have enforced Russia sanctions and that is one of his many lies. You can't believe ANYTHING from this administration without external verification every step of the way.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/violations-found-converted-walmart-housing-undocumented-children-separated/story?id=56044343
So far this year, they've been awarded $458.7 million in federal money to care for kids detained at the border, including children separated from their parents and minors attempting to cross the border alone.
Just last week, the federal government awarded the company $147.8 million, the most money they've ever received in one sum, according to HHS records dating back to 2007.
Blotus just accused Dems of creating a "massive child-smuggling industry".
That means, as we suspected, that's what THEY'RE doing. Because everything he accuses Dems of doing are things he's doing or done.
Paula
9
A group is petitioning DC to revoke the Trump hotel’s liquor license on the grounds that he doesn’t meet the “good character” license requirement.
Funny... and they are totally on point... more than they know. :)
Michale
Except for the FACT that Democrats used the children of DACA as "bargaining chips" during the shut down..
And then TOTALLY sold them out..
Except? Except?
I am not constrained to point out that your rebuttal to the excerpt from Mikey's correspondence to the RNC is what we commonly refer to as "whataboutism" and has absolutely zero bearing on Mikey's statement. :)
Balthasar
23
Political Scientists Baffled By Trump’s Ability To End Something He Had No Control Over Just Days Ago
And with that move, Trump literally just did exactly what he keeps claiming Obama did... which is a lie... he claimed he could not sign and EO and then signed an EO.
Obama never did that; he changed the policy in the same manner that the Trump Administration recently changed the policy but never signed an Excecutive Order to do it.
Trump has now become his own fabricated argument. :)
Michale
24
You mean, like when Obama told a group of illegal immigration activists that he can't change the law...
Right before he went and changed the law??
More whataboutism, and I see you are still confusing changing "policy" with changing "law."
Policies and laws are two different things. I never met a law enforcement officer who did not know the difference between a policy and a law. :)
neilm
37
Well it seems like Michale is still wetting his pants trying to convince himself that stealing kids from their parents is the new Republican way and we should all be glad about it.
Yes, sir.
On a positive note the fundraiser for RIACES is over the $15M goal and they are now aiming for $20M. The money goes to help provide legal services for the kids and their families.
All those dollars headed to a Texas entity to do some good for people. Thanks again for posting it. I put out the word with my "peeps," and we're on it. They're going to put these families back together because the Trump administration has no plan to do that.
Melania Trump is starting to make some noise about reuniting the families so perhaps she'll beat some sense into the BLOTUS administration. She should change her platform from "Be Best" to "Fix Mess." :)
TS,
All I would like to see here is common decency.
It's not that hard.
Paul Manafort's motion to dismiss evidence obtained by the FBI during their raid of his storage facility in Virginia: Denied.
Yes, you always thinks that..
"It's gonna happen!! You watch!!! Trump is going to be impeached and then jailed!! It's gonna happen!! Any day now!! You watch!!! Here it comes!!!"
You crack me up, Paula.. :D
Can't you say what you need say to a poster without the obvious lies and fake quotes?
You're goading and gaslighting while you assume the role of victim. Figure it out, please. :)
What is with Melania's jacket?
https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/21/politics/melania-trump-jacket/index.html
When my wife showed me the pic I assumed it was photoshopped. Bloody hell. And you know where she is going? To the border.
Who is she trolling with this?
Michale
49
YOu see, that is the inherent problem here..
Ya'all want a set of rules and conduct/etiquette for others.. But you don't want to abide by those same rules yerselves..
Projection. This is a hallmark of a gaslighter. He also got a bit of playing victim in there too.
Figure it out, please.
neilm
51
With that comment there, Neil wins the "Internets" today. :)
Liz-76
I too would like a state of common decency around here. I think that refusing to be drawn into pointless circular arguments is the best approach to achieving that goal. Pointless arguments are Troll Treats. I think you and I will just have to agree to disagree about this. I will continue my NO TREATS FOR TROLLS POLICY. As I see it, freedom of speech includes freedom not to speak when it suits you.
"aquila non capit muscas"
Michale
57
Since border guards also assist those crossing the border seeking amnesty, the addition of the paragraph doesn't help your argument at all.
Thank you for playing, but you seriously lost that argument. :)
We don't disagree, TS, on the best policy for this site. And, I guess I'll just have to live with the comments section as it is and just hope it evolves, for Chris's sake.
Paula
64
Another big part of this story is that the nazi-administration set up all kinds of deals with Betsy DeVos and ilk related companies, private prisons and other scum-companies, to transport and house these hostages. They're all making money and they are deliberately breaking the chain of custody to keep these families separated. There's deliberate cruelty and profit-by-sociopaths going on.
Yes, ma'am. Spectrum Health.
[79] neilm: whatever the stupid jacket was about it ain't good. The speculations I've seen:
1. The most obvious and worst: she doesn't give a damn about the asylum-seekers abuses and resents having to pretend she does. Also, signalling the deplorables that pretending to care is nonsense - she's a sadistic, conscienceless pod person just like them!
2. She's sending a message to Blotus that she doesn't care about him. Can't quite figure the logic there.
3. She's a tone-deaf idiot and her staff are tone-deaf incompetents.
Her spokesperson says "there's no hidden message" and to not focus on her clothes. Everyone dismisses that as meaningless. The "best" you can give her is #3.
[82] TS: I think that refusing to be drawn into pointless circular arguments is the best approach to achieving that goal.
Yep!
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/trump-campaign-data-operation-stolen-clinton-emails-month-wikileaks-bombshell-report/
So now we're learning Cambridge Analytica had the stolen emails over a month BEFORE wikileaks published them.
neilm
79
What is with Melania's jacket?
https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/21/politics/melania-trump-jacket/index.html
Oh, well. I had not seen that until now... before my earlier post.
When my wife showed me the pic I assumed it was photoshopped. Bloody hell. And you know where she is going? To the border.
Wow. Obviously, she's not oblivious to the fact that her wardrobe is scrutinized... She's not stupid... so (?)
TS
82
As I see it, freedom of speech includes freedom not to speak when it suits you.
"aquila non capit muscas"
Yes, sir!
Pereat tristitia,
Pereant osores.
Pereat diabolus,
Quivis antiburschius
Atque irrisores.
Paula
88
So now we're learning Cambridge Analytica had the stolen emails over a month BEFORE wikileaks published them.
And who paid Cambridge Analytica?
And who went to Prague and paid the hackers?
Yes, ma'am. :)
Paula
86
The speculations I've seen:
1. The most obvious and worst: she doesn't give a damn about the asylum-seekers abuses and resents having to pretend she does. Also, signalling the deplorables that pretending to care is nonsense - she's a sadistic, conscienceless pod person just like them!
2. She's sending a message to Blotus that she doesn't care about him. Can't quite figure the logic there.
3. She's a tone-deaf idiot and her staff are tone-deaf incompetents.
I have a theory to add:
4. It's a distraction from the "real news." A shiny object thrown out in hopes that hours and hours of the news cycle will be spent covering this ridiculous photo rather than the BLOTUS administration mess or Benedict Donald.
[93] Kick: Yes, the shiny object ploy.
Blotus, contradicting FLOTUS spokes-idiot, tweeted that she was too sending a message! She was telling the media they're all fake and she doesn't care what THEY say!
Emphasizing yet again that no one should believe anything that comes from any member of this administration without external verification. Not that this stupid misfire will ever be clarified. But for whatever reason, America's First Lady went on a "help" mission wearing a coat emblazoned with giant letters: I Really Don't Care. Do U?
There's really no lipstick for that pig.
Kick-90
That is a beautiful quote and very appropriate to this blog. Your Latin is at least five time better than mine. I used The Goog to translate:
Perish sadness
Perish haters
Perish the devil
Those against the student body
As well as those who mock us
I lifted "An eagle does not hawk flies" from the I Cladius novels, that's how Robert Graves translates the Latin. Fun fact. Graves acknowledged the help of one airman T.E. Shaw on various Roman weapons. T.E. Shaw was the pseudonym T.E. Lawrence, AKA Lawrence of Arabia used in his postwar RAF service. I love stumbling into hidden trivia like that.
Paula
93
Blotus, contradicting FLOTUS spokes-idiot, tweeted that she was too sending a message! She was telling the media they're all fake and she doesn't care what THEY say!
What? BLOTUS claims to be coordinating with FLOTUS? I don't think so.
Emphasizing yet again that no one should believe anything that comes from any member of this administration without external verification.
The MAGAts will believe whatever they're spoon-fed... even when it contradicts itself.
Speaking of which, have you seen the latest BS from Jefferson Beauregard Sessions? Something along the lines of: It was never our intention to separate families. It just happened all accidental-like.
There's really no lipstick for that pig.
Is that really fair to pigs? :)
[95] Kick: Yeah, I saw the Sessions claim - again, you can't believe ANYTHING anyone in this administration says unless it is externally verified.
Lipstick and pig? I know - pigs are better in every way than the perps in this admin.
TS
94
That is a beautiful quote and very appropriate to this blog.
It's a stanza from Gaudeamus Igitur (So Let Us Rejoice)… a drinking song not at all unlike the one we "borrowed" for the music to our National Anthem. I thought of it when I read your quote so I nicked it right out of there.
Your Latin is at least five time better than mine.
I wouldn't wager on that, but when your namesake is the Roman goddess who represented triumph over death and made the decision as to which side would be successful during war, perhaps it helps. I know enough to survive. ;)
I lifted "An eagle does not hawk flies" from the I Cladius novels, that's how Robert Graves translates the Latin.
Eagles were a very important symbol in Rome primarily before Constantine went into battle bearing a standard with the Chi-Rho... superimposed letters XP, the first two letters of the Greek word for Christ. The Roman goddess of victory was a particular favorite of Constantine; he even placed her on the back of his coin... until he was victorious carrying the Christian symbol and embraced the religion, and the rest is history.
I would translate that phrase: "The Eagle does not catch flies."
Fun fact. Graves acknowledged the help of one airman T.E. Shaw on various Roman weapons. T.E. Shaw was the pseudonym T.E. Lawrence, AKA Lawrence of Arabia used in his postwar RAF service. I love stumbling into hidden trivia like that.
Yes, sir. Please share as many as you wish with me; I love it too. :)
Oh, TS... one more thing to add about your phrase: aquila non capit muscas.
I couldn't help but notice it was particularly fitting when you consider that the Trump minions are often referred to as: MAGAts… pronounced maggots... fly larvae! ;)
Paula [88] - Don't get overly excited about this article Paula. It's dreadfully sourced, and quite vague when it comes to details. Guccifer 2.0 dumped all of the emails onto the web in un-indexed form onto a site called DC Leaks about a month before Wikileaks released an indexed version of the same material (late June and late July 2016 respectively). CA, which had no problem handling raw data, could have picked up their stash from Guccifer's initial dump.
Unfortunately, the person cited in the article doesn't reveal whether he is familiar with, or even aware of that time line.
I'm certain that investigators will be interested, however. If CA had any info from the hack prior to June 12, 2016, when the hackers were finally knocked off of the DNC server, that would suggest a direct connection between themselves and the GRU.
Kick-98
Graves went for the more poetic "hawk" rather than the more literal "catch." You'll notice I use student body rather than student fraternity because fraternity has a pretty specific party-hearty association to American ears.
An eagle would not be caught dead hawking maggots. On the other hand, if maggots find a dead eagle, it's an all you can eat buffet.
TS
100
You'll notice I use student body rather than student fraternity because fraternity has a pretty specific party-hearty association to American ears.
Well, it is a drinking song, TS, with some salty language interspersed throughout.
An eagle would not be caught dead hawking maggots. On the other hand, if maggots find a dead eagle, it's an all you can eat buffet.
Now I can't unsee that. *laughs* :)