Vice-Presidential Debate Thoughts
Two down, two to go.
Continuing my "I watch them so you don't have to" commitment, tonight I watched the vice-presidential debate between Vice President Mike Pence and Senator Kamala Harris in full. Boiled down to one thought, my main takeaway was that I seriously doubt that tonight changed any voter's mind out there.
I thought both candidates did OK -- not great, not bad, just OK. I thought that they both had a gameplan and pretty much stuck to it, and I thought both had weak moments as well as strong. All in all, I'd largely call it a draw, although my personal bias would have to give Kamala Harris the edge, in the end.
As for the question of who won and who lost, well, tonight had one clear loser: moderator Susan Page, of USA Today. Page was worse than Chris Wallace, and that's saying something. Mike Pence, throughout the night, used a "filibuster" tactic that he's perfected during television interviews, of spinning out an answer about seven or eight paragraphs longer than he's given time for. When Page tried to remind him his time was up, Pence just absolutely ignored her and just bulled forward with the rest of his long-winded answer. Each and every time.
This became more and more apparent over the course of the evening, and it became more and more annoying. Page finally lost her cool about at the one-hour mark, and pointedly reminded Pence that his campaign had agreed to the rules, but this only slowed Pence down for about five minutes before he was filibustering like crazy once again. And Page didn't repeat it, sadly.
Kamala Harris, on the other hand, had obviously chosen the high-road tactic of: "let Pence speak as long as possible, while looking bemused." She refused to interrupt him (except for a small number of exceptions), and she refused to complain about his hogging the clock (except towards the end, when she finally demanded equal time).
Harris had one other strategy for the crosschatter coming the other direction, and this one worked a bit better. Whenever Pence tried to interrupt her (which he did on a regular basis at the start, but tapered off towards the end), Harris would stop speaking, turn to him, and say: "Mister Vice President, I am speaking." This was a low-key scolding, but through repetition it became quite effective. It was clearly obvious -- as it was last week at the first presidential debate -- which candidate was following the rules and which one was clearly and totally ignoring them.
Susan Page, on the other hand, was totally ineffective at any sort of (as she promised at the start) "enforcement of the rules." She would very quietly say: "Mister Vice President, your time is up." Pence would then completely ignore her and go right on talking. Fifteen or twenty seconds later, she'd try again, to no effect whatsoever. There was no enforcement at all. There was barely even the presence of a moderator, for long stretches.
Page fell down in another regard as well, by trying to pack too much into a single debate. She only had 90 minutes, and she had planned on dividing it into nine (!) segments. By my count (I could be wrong, I'm doing this from hastily-jotted notes), she only got in eight of these, leaving me to wonder what issue wound up getting cut. But because all her focus was to get to all of her segments, she asked absolutely no followup questions at all. She never once told either candidate: "You have not answered my question -- please do so," or anything remotely like it. She didn't even attempt calling out misstatements of fact, which allowed Mike Pence to get away with all kinds of lies, innuendo, and outright gaslighting.
Before I get to the individual reviews, here is my standard disclaimer (which somehow didn't make it into last week's column on the first debate of the season): All quotes below were hastily jotted down by me, and I could have gotten the wording slightly wrong. I think I've captured the feeling pretty well, and I promise to correct anything I get wrong later, if it is brought to my attention. OK, with that being said, let's take a closer look at each candidate.
I thought both candidates figured out pretty early on that Susan Page was a non-entity in the debate, and both decided to essentially ignore her questions entirely at times and instead answer the question they wanted to answer instead. This wasn't universal -- the candidates would respond if the question fed into one of their own memorized talking points -- but it did happen with regularity, once they both figured out that Page wasn't even trying to hold them to the questions she had pre-scripted. Or fact-checking their answers in any way, for that matter.
Individually, both candidates had some notable moments. Mike Pence's best moment was undoubtedly when he decided to take over the moderator's job (since Page had faded into the background to such a degree), when he turned to Harris and directly challenged her to say whether she and Joe Biden would "pack the Supreme Court." She refused to answer (more on that in a moment), and he drove the point home by repeatedly asking her to commit, and pointing out at the end that she had refused to answer.
Mike Pence's worst moment was tougher to choose, because there were plenty of contenders. Pence uttered some whoppers in the course of the evening, a few of which still make my jaw drop in amazement (mostly at his sheer chutzpah):
"Stop playing politics with people's lives" (in reference to Harris questioning a vaccine that no doctors recommended but that Donald Trump said was OK)
"We have a plan" (on protecting people with pre-existing conditions -- Pence then went on with one of his long-winded answers about completely unrelated issues, without ever saying another word about what that plan would be)
"We're going to listen to the science / We respect the science" (on climate change)
"I trust our justice system" (on Brianna Taylor)
Seriously, Mike, do you really expect anyone not named "Trump" to believe any of that? Hoo boy.
But to my ears at least Pence's worst moment came multiple times, because it was a line he had rehearsed so well that he used it at least two or three times: "You are entitled to your own opinions, but you don't get to make up your own facts."
Now, Mike Pence is such a downright religious man that I was half expecting Kamala Harris to back away from him when he said it so she wouldn't get caught up in the bolt of lightning from above that was about to strike him down. There is simply no one in politics from the past 60 or 70 years who "makes up his own facts" more than Donald J. Trump. You'd have to go all the way back to Joe McCarthy, in fact, to find anyone even close. In a lost opportunity, however, Harris failed to challenge Pence on this whopper to end all whoppers.
Kamala Harris, when all was said and done, didn't really challenge Pence on much of anything. This was a disappointment for anyone who expected her to "prosecute the case" against the Trump/Pence administration (as she promised to do, back when she was a presidential candidate herself). Her Senate committee hearings have been a lot feistier and more confrontational, in fact.
Now, I do realize that Harris has the threat of the "angry Black woman" label looming over her. No African-American candidate of either sex wants to have the word "angry" attached to him or her. But when it came to standing up for the truth and standing up for herself, I felt that Harris still could have been a wee bit more forceful at times. Or maybe not "forceful," but certainly more specific. Harris let all kinds of wild claims by Pence just drift by unchallenged, every one of which was really a lost opportunity.
She did rebut some things, but she was a little too choosy about it. She could have started off each answer with a quick litany of: "Well, what he said about X was a lie, what he said about Y was also an untruth, and what he said about Z was just from beyond Pluto or somewhere." Knock them down, and then move quickly along to your answer. But there was precious little of this.
Kamala's strategy of often smirking or laughing at Pence when he told some egregious lies may be criticized by others, but I actually loved this tactic. She got her disdain across without interrupting him and without the whole "angry Black woman" thing, and I thought she used it pretty effectively. I have not previously been a fan of her smirking, but tonight it seemed more than appropriate, to me at least. As previously mentioned, her: "Mister Vice President, I am speaking" line was also a big winner for me, whenever Pence interrupted her.
Harris did have several standout moments of her own. She made her own case on several subjects both crystal clear and with emotion and conviction. From the very start, she said Trump was "the greatest failure of any administration in the history of the country," and she kept that pressure up all night. She had the facts on her side to prove it, as well (unlike Pence, who just made stuff up all evening).
When Harris was on the offense against Trump, she did her best, as when she drove home the fact that Trump only paid $750 in income taxes for two years, and is $400 million in debt... to someone or another.
She drew clear contrasts with how a Biden/Harris administration would be different, as well: "There was a time when our country believed in science." On the subject of pre-existing conditions and Trump trying to overturn Obamacare in the Supreme Court, Harris summed it up as: "They're coming for you" (and your healthcare).
She got most animated at precisely the right times -- such as expressing outrage over Trump calling our troops "losers" and "suckers," and refusing to raise the subject of Russian bounties on our soldiers with Vladimir Putin.
Harris even got in a few good canned lines as well -- ones that were obviously pre-scripted. At times, she can come off sounding pretty insincere when deploying such canned lines, but tonight I thought she did an excellent job. "Joe Biden will be only the second practicing Catholic to sit in the White House" -- a fact I hadn't even really ever considered before, but it certainly is true. It also harkens back to the first Catholic president, who was a pretty popular guy in his day.
Indeed, her best moment came with one of these prepared lines, after Pence tried to nail her down on the question of packing the court. Pence set her up perfectly for the question by pointing out the Supreme Court has had nine members for 150 years or so. Harris didn't miss a beat and answered with her own history lesson: "Abraham Lincoln -- 'Honest Abe' -- had a vacancy on the Supreme Court happen exactly how far away we are from the election, 27 days. And he decided to let the American people decide." This was a brilliant answer to the Republicans' naked hypocrisy on the issue (the gigantic flip-flop from four years ago to now), and Harris delivered it well. While Harris pointedly refused to answer the question about court-packing, she even had a backup answer, about how of all the judges Trump had named to appellate courts, not one of them was Black ("You want to talk about court packing?!?").
Harris showed the most emotion answering the question about Brianna Taylor: "An American man was tortured and killed under the knee of a uniformed police officer," and: "Bad cops are bad for good cops." She also expressed indignation when Pence tried to question her record as a prosecutor -- something notably missing from all the other times Pence told lies about her and Joe Biden. All in all, Harris seemed to improve as the evening wore on.
To close my thoughts tonight, I have one point to make about the very end of the debate. I thought both candidates totally blew their answer to the final question, which was a complaint by an eighth-grader about all the nastiness and arguing in American politics that she sees on the news. Pence, of course, had absolutely no leg to stand on (having to defend Donald Trump's civility is a tough if not impossible task for anyone to attempt, to be fair). He tried some sappy answer about how we all get along after all the arguing's done, which was just downright laughable to the point of ridiculousness.
But Harris absolutely refused to answer this in the way it truly needed to be answered. If I had been her, here's what I would have said:
"I can guarantee you that if Joe Biden wins the presidency, you and your classmates will never again be shocked or embarrassed by a presidential tweet. I promise you that Joe Biden will make schoolchildren proud of their president once again, instead of watching helplessly while he makes the most vicious attacks on everyone who doesn't personally worship him. That sort of thing will never happen under Joe Biden's leadership, because Joe is a decent human being. So that's your answer -- if we win, the personal mudslinging will end. If Donald Trump is re-elected, then the country's got four more years of it to look forward to."
-- Chris Weigant
Follow Chris on Twitter: @ChrisWeigant
In the file of missed opportunities, two things struck me. Firstly, Harris proved once again that Democrats still don't know how to stand up for Democratic pro-growth and tax policies or to fight against the Republican cult of economic failure, a brilliant phrase coined by David Fiderer and which should be repeated at every given opportunity. Ahem.
Secondly, Harris failed to counter the Pence myth that Trump saved lives with his Covid travel bans. The air travel restrictions that Trump imposed did more harm than good for two reasons. Number one, they were as porous as Hell and, number two, they gave him and therefore the country a false sense of security and the crazy idea that nothing else needed to be done.
Apparently, there was a fly.
I missed the fly, personally. But I do have it on tape...
Heh.
Can't wait for SNL this week...
:-)
-CW
LizM -
Execllent points, both of them.
I like that phrase "cult of economic failure." Got a link for it's origin? I may have to start using that...
-CW
I agree that this debate didn't move the needle.
Now, I do realize that Harris has the threat of the "angry Black woman" label looming over her. No African-American candidate of either sex wants to have the word "angry" attached to him or her. But when it came to standing up for the truth and standing up for herself, I felt that Harris still could have been a wee bit more forceful at times. Or maybe not "forceful," but certainly more specific. Harris let all kinds of wild claims by Pence just drift by unchallenged, every one of which was really a lost opportunity.
I listened to some of The Young Turk's commentary and they eviscerated Kamala's lack of ooomph. I suspect Kamala simply wanted to "do no harm" to the Democratic cause and that's why she was so reticent to battle.
"I can guarantee you that if Joe Biden wins the presidency, you and your classmates will never again be shocked or embarrassed by a presidential tweet. I promise you that Joe Biden will make schoolchildren proud of their president once again, instead of watching helplessly while he makes the most vicious attacks on everyone who doesn't personally worship him. That sort of thing will never happen under Joe Biden's leadership, because Joe is a decent human being. So that's your answer -- if we win, the personal mudslinging will end. If Donald Trump is re-elected, then the country's got four more years of it to look forward to."
It truly was a pablum, silly last question. Especially since Doormat moderator skipped one of the 10 topics. Your response would have been a ball hit over the bleachers and still, er, flying.
Chris, you left out the most important word in that phrase! :-(
Yeah, I've got that link around here somewhere but if you google REPUBLICAN cult of economic failure and David Fiderer you will find his Huffington Post piece of the same title from around 2010.
Hey, Chris!
Found the link for you:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-bush-tax-cuts-and-the_b_781419
[]
Elizabeth wrote,
Firstly, Harris proved once again that Democrats still don't know how to stand up for Democratic pro-growth and tax policies or to fight against the Republican cult of economic failure, a brilliant phrase coined by David Fiderer and which should be repeated at every given opportunity. Ahem.
You see, that's what bothers us Bernie Bros & Warrenistas. We're afraid that Establishment Dems don't want to undo Reaganism®, that they'll let us battle over social issues whilst the well to do in both Parties laugh all the way to the bank. Greed isn't just a Repug thing -- they're just more open about it.
MtnCaddy,
If a certain treasury secretary named Geithner could take this fight to the Republicans, then Biden-Harris should be able to do it, too.
Democratic policies on the whole have been far more pro-growth than any Republican policy. There are decades of proof of this.
Biden is anything but an "establishment" Dem, by the way.
Democrats always have to clean up the economic messes left by Republican administrations. This is SUCH an easy fight.
OK, I watched the replay, and there was indeed a fly.
I'm thinking SNL might just want to get Jeff Goldblum to do a cameo this week... heh...
:-)
Sorry, I'll BUZZ OFF now...
-CW
MtnCaddy,
You should read David Fiderer's piece that I linked to above.
LizM [7] -
Groovy! Now I can properly credit it if I start to use it. Always try to give credit where it is due, especially for a fellow ex-HuffPoster. Thanks!
Although I do admit I was too tired to look up who came up with the "you don't get to make up your own facts" line. I know it's at least 40-50 years old...
-CW
The Guardian helpfully points out that (Pence's) pink eye, or conjunctivitis, can be a symptom of coronavirus. Heh.
Chris,
You had darn well better start using it!!!!
MtnCaddy [8] -
Personally, my view is we can all debate these points later... like on Jan. 21st next year, right after the Inauguration. Until then, I'm pretty focused on one thing, if you know what I mean.
-CW
MtnCaddy [15] -
One of the networks caught this too... ABC, maybe?
-CW
I'm going to find out what David F is up to, these days. He had some great pieces over at HuffPost ...
Daniel Patrick Moynihan said,
You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.
Elizabeth,
I read this article on HuffPo back when HuffPo was a serious politics website.
[17]
Agreed. Us Fellow Travelers are going to take over the Party, anyways.
[18]
Dunno. As Rachel Maddow would say, "I have the interwebs machine but not the television machine."
You can already buy a "Truth over Flies" Biden/Harris 2020 Flyswatter at Biden's online store...
flywillvote.com
My favourite writer on the Republican cult of economic failure, David Fiderer seems to have virtually fallen off the face of the earth. Haven't been able to find any recent writings but, he sure knows what's what with Republican economic policy ...
MtnCaddy,
Yeah, I was a regular over at the HuffPost until they forced commenters to have a facebook account if we wanted to continue commenting. It took a while but, I finally succumbed and got a FB account, only to have it work very badly and then I deleted it. That was years ago. Now, I just recently got another FB account but, only to chat with some of my most favourite people on the planet. I don't even think of HuffPost anymore - I have found other ways to stay in touch with my favourite political analysts - here and via email.
Why, it's been, like, HOURS since I posted a Lincoln Project video, this one titled, Gasping For Air.
Hey Elizabeth, I just sent you a FB Friend Request, under my name Taras Stratelak.
At least I think it was to the one true Elizabeth Miller
chaszzzbrown
23
You can already buy a "Truth over Flies" Biden/Harris 2020 Flyswatter at Biden's online store...
Sold Out... they flew off the shelves. ;)
MtnCaddy,
I haven't received your request. I know there is more than one Elizabeth Miller even in my own city!
Fly songs:
https://www.ranker.com/list/the-best-songs-with-fly-in-the-title/ranker-music
My favorite (Canuck muzik, which I sincerely hope applies to Trump very soon now):
Fly by night, away from here
Change my life again
Fly by night, goodbye my dear
My ship isn't coming and I just can't pretend
:-)
-CW
The fly could smell a death cult zombie and he dominated Mother's hubby.
God believes it's important for the righteous to judge the wicked.
They crouched down low.
Sat in the front row.
Untied the rope so they could fly
Hold on tight, let's get it just right,
We'll take our last flight. You and I.
~moxy fruvous
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX9Gx4j4Lio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEVDZl5UvN4
One of the best fly songs ever!
John From Censornati
33
God believes it's important for the righteous to judge the wicked.
Heh.
*
Question: When one goes from referring to COVID-19 caused by SARS-CoV-2 as "the plague from China" to declaring it "a blessing from God," would we call that:
A. an epiphany
B. a revelation
C. con artistry
D. dumbfuckery
E. AOTA
If Poor Donald had an iota of an idea whatsoever regarding the contents of that Bible he hoisted upside down like a prop during that orchestrated photo op wherein the peaceful protesters were beaten up and teargassed, he wouldn't be so hysterically and visibly confused about the meaning of "blessing" and what it represents when God smites you with pestilence and flies and sends the guy who stutters to part the Red Sea.
It's called the Exodus, Donald; pack your shit.
Chris
I'm frankly surprised that you can get away with the phrase "Angry black woman" in this age of rampant PC.
Surely, you guys should have banished the word 'black' by now in favor of 'Angry dark-complexioned woman'.
Your team must be falling down on the job.
C. R. Stucki
40
I'm frankly surprised that you can get away with the phrase "Angry black woman" in this age of rampant PC.
Did you just crawl out from under a rock, Stucki? A member of the Grab Our P Party prattling on about "this age of rampant PC." *laughs*
Surely, you guys should have banished the word 'black' by now in favor of 'Angry dark-complexioned woman'.
Mountain man never heard of "Black Lives Matter"? You should get out more, Stucki. Seriously. :)
Your team must be falling down on the job.
Kick [39}
Spiritual explanations are just not tolerated in our great nation. Preachers and righteous politicians have been intimidated by the Secular Socialist Machine.
Pat Robertson suggested a supernatural explanation for the earthquake in Haiti, but many accept natural explanations for the earthquake and
believe that God had nothing to do it. Aside from Robertson, Christian leaders shied away from declaring Hurricane Katrina a manifestation of God’s wrath, but it is interesting to note that New Orleans has a noticeable voodoo presence.
These leaders are concerned that if they even suggest that a plague is God’s judgment that the world will find fault with God rather than place the blame on sinners for provoking God’s wrath.
Many refuse to believe the Word of Our Lord because believing requires sinners to forsake their sins. The last thing the sinner wants to do is give up his sins because he loves sin and hates righteousness. If we are going to be successful in turning America around, we must do just the opposite. We must love righteousness and hate sinners.
This generation knows not the fear of the Lord, hence there is little concern for the souls of the lost.
God is love.
John From Censornati
42
Heh. I do like the way you think, JFC.
God is love.
When I was a wee small child, my Sunday school teacher asked each of us in her class to explain what that statement "God is love" meant, and when it was my turn, I responded to her in all seriousness:
"It means whoever said that didn't read the Old Testament."
She tried to send me to the corner, but I explained to her how she wasn't God but a mere sinner with no actual power to order me to stand there, and I then promptly delivered myself from her classroom of evil. :)
@kick,
If that's you as a wee small child, you must have been REALLY fun in middle school.
or junior high, intermediate school, whatever they called it at that point.
The cast of Veep did a reunion show as a fundraiser for the Democratic Party of Wisconsin.
You can see it here.
I voted about an hr. ago. My general impressions:
The drive up ballot box is on an obscure street off a one-way street in a grid of one way streets. Best to catch it on the first pass. Do not attempt during rush hrs!!!
The drop box is impressive looking. Think Brinks Truck w/o wheels. There is a marked parking area that can hold about 3 cars - any more and the road is likely to get clogged. At that point I would hope they send out a deputy to direct traffic. The BOA website says there is a TV camera monitoring the box - but I couldn't see it... it's probably small and out of the way.
There is another drop box located within the County Government building, but you have to park in an adjacent garage (free chit for voters) or on the street if you can find an open spot and have spare change to feed the meter. That is a real pain in the butt...so drop your absentee ballot off as early as practical.
NPR is reporting that last nights "debate" is likely the last. Trump doesn't approve of additional COVID safety precautions that will be put into place and prevent him from hogging the mic.
I see no downside in this. If candidates want exposure, they can pay for commercials, pay for rallies or arrange interviews with journalists (who may or may not be paid under the table).
[37]
[38]
Forget OD and stick with the funny stuff.
nypoet22
44|45
If that's you as a wee small child, you must have been REALLY fun in middle school.
or junior high, intermediate school, whatever they called it at that point.
They called it junior high then, and you're right; I was "REALLY fun."
For example, when I was in 6th grade, a bunch of my classmates came running to find me to inform that the class bully was threatening to harm my twin. So I did what anyone would do under the circumstances. I picked the bully up off the ground by the neck and tossed it into the wall conveniently located approximately 6 feet directly behind it. Good times. :)
April 17: Donald Trump tweets: "LIBERATE MICHIGAN."
October 8: Six dipshits arrested in a militia plot to kidnap Gretchen Whitmer, Governor of Michigan... foiled by the FBI. More arrests coming.
Moral of the Story:You never know when that militia buddy of yours is a badass undercover FBI agent just doing their job to protect the people.
Kick-52
"The group decided they needed to increase their numbers and encouraged each other to talk to their neighbors and spread their message." - Detroit News
Now that's what I call trade craft!
Who wouldn't love to see the notes that Biden, Pence and Harris make during the debates?
I would have said trump as well but he doesn't take notes and only writes with a sharpie.
Kick, I suppose you love Texas. But your talents would certainly enhanced the Left Coast ambience of my Country-Cali.