Elizabeth Warren Is Right
Senator Elizabeth Warren published what amounts to a call to action for her fellow Democrats in today's New York Times, and it's really hard to disagree with anything she has written. Her main point is that if Democrats sit back and try to run on their record (since 2020), they are going to get badly beaten in the midterm elections. Without coming right out and saying it, Warren calls on Senate Democrats to pass whatever Senators Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema can manage to agree to. And for President Joe Biden to start using his executive pen far more aggressively than he has, so far. There is no guarantee any of this will be successful, but if Democrats don't at least make the attempt, they're going to be toast in the midterms. This is Warren's main point, and like I said, it is hard to disagree with her.
She starts her piece reminding everyone that Democrats made a lot of promises to get elected in 2020, but have not delivered on many of them:
Now Republicans are betting that a stalled Biden agenda won't give Democrats enough to run on in the midterm elections -- and they might be right. Despite pandemic relief, infrastructure investments and the historic Supreme Court confirmation of Ketanji Brown Jackson, we promised more -- and voters remember those promises.
She then emphasizes this warning, and begins to lay out her list of priorities (while keeping in mind what might be possible and what is clearly not, due to the filibuster):
Democrats win elections when we show we understand the painful economic realities facing American families and convince voters we will deliver meaningful change. To put it bluntly: if we fail to use the months remaining before the elections to deliver on more of our agenda, Democrats are headed toward big losses in the midterms.
Time is running short. We need to finalize a budget reconciliation deal, making giant corporations pay their share to fund vital investments in combating climate change and lowering costs for families, which can advance with only 50 Senate votes. Other priorities can be done with the president's executive authority. It's no secret that I believe we should abolish the filibuster. But if Republicans want to use it to block policies that Americans broadly support, we should also force them to take those votes in plain view.
Warren goes on to identify some specific agenda items, beginning with tackling corruption by passing a law banning members of Congress (and their spouses) from owning or trading individual stocks "which the vast majority of voters support banning, according to multiple polls." She then moves on to a much harder thing to legislate -- stopping corporations from raking in profits during an inflationary period just "because they can" (a quote from none other than "Fed Chair Jerome Powell, a conservative Republican"). This is the sort of idea that polls well, but could be extremely hard to actually write into effective legislation, however.
But her next idea is pretty simple, and it has the benefit of already having Joe Manchin's support:
We can stand up to the armies of lobbyists and P.R. flacks and tackle tax loopholes for the rich and powerful. About two-thirds of likely American voters -- including a majority of Republicans -- say it's time for billionaires to pay more in taxes. Nearly three-quarters of Americans want to put an end to wildly profitable corporations paying nothing or little in federal income taxes (yes, Amazon, I'm looking at you) and put into place a global minimum corporate tax. And a majority of Americans would like to use some of those tax revenues to invest in clean energy, affordable child care, and universal pre-K.
If Democrats can't get both Manchin and Sinema to sign on to some version of this, then they really don't deserve to hold power. Warren didn't mention using some of that money to shrink the deficit (which Manchin is going to insist upon), but her basic list is a good one -- it is realistic and fits in with what Manchin has already said he is willing to vote for.
Warren then shifts to things President Biden could accomplish with executive orders alone ("without rounding up 50 Senate votes"). Cancellation of some student debt is the first of these suggestions. It's kind of astounding (especially since he's married to a community college teacher) that Biden hasn't done this yet, since he did campaign on forgiving at least $10,000 of student debt (while other Democratic candidates, including Warren, were pushing for all student debt to be forgiven -- Biden's position was actually fairly moderate).
Warren also mentions lowering prescription drug prices and expanding overtime pay to include more workers (so corporations can't just label some peon a "manager" and then expect them to work 70-hour weeks for no extra pay). All three of these ideas would be wildly popular, unless you are a giant drug company or the C.E.O. of a fast food restaurant chain.
Warren then closes with a clear warning (emphasis in original):
Like many Americans, I'm frustrated by our failure to get big things done -- things that are both badly needed and very popular with all Americans. While Republican politicians obstruct many efforts to improve people's lives and many swear loyalty to the Big Lie, the urgency of the next election bears down on us.
Democrats cannot bow to the wisdom of out-of-touch consultants who recommend we simply tout our accomplishments. Instead, Democrats need to deliver more of the president's agenda -- or else we will not be in the majority much longer.
As I already said, it's hard to argue with that premise.
This is the reality Democrats need to not only face, but to attack. The economy is doing great, except for inflation -- which is all the media covers and it is all anyone cares about right now, when asked their feelings about the economy. The big legislative accomplishments from Biden's first year in office (the American Rescue Plan and the bipartisan infrastructure deal) have been largely forgotten by the voters -- if they even ever heard about them in the first place.
Democrats from Joe Biden on down ran on some very big campaign promises. Most of them have not happened yet. Sadly, a lot of them are never going to happen, considering the current makeup of the Senate. But there are still some things worth doing that Democrats could conceivably get done. So it is time for Democrats to roll up their sleeves, sit down with Manchin and Sinema and get their buy-in from the start for some sort of package that can pass the Senate, and get it onto Biden's desk. Yes, an enormous amount of time has already been fruitlessly wasted attempting this same exact feat, but that is no reason to give up now.
Biden himself needs to realize the dire position he and his party are now in as well. His efforts to cheerlead for his accomplishments and his party have not notably been successful to date, so it's time to add a few things to that list of accomplishments by drafting and signing some high-profile executive orders that will make good on some of his own campaign promises. Nobody is going to care whether these things get done by an act of Congress or a presidential signature, so it is long past the time when Biden should be worried about such niceties. If Democrats lose power in even one house of Congress in November, then Biden won't be able to accomplish anything in his final two years of office, except by executive order -- so why wait? It'll be too late afterwards, but it might help the efforts to hang onto control in Congress to do some of these now, before people go vote.
Above all else, Democrats need a sense of urgency that they seem to currently lack. The midterm election results are not a foregone conclusion, they can be influenced by what happens in the meantime. The only way a lot of Biden's agenda can happen is if more Democrats get elected to the Senate (so the rest of them can ignore Manchin and Sinema's obstructionism). That's admittedly a very tall order, but it is just never going to happen unless Democrats can give the voters a real reason for getting enthusiastic about going to the polls.
Elizabeth Warren clearly feels that sense of urgency. One can only hope she can convince the rest of her party that doing nothing is not going to work. There is still time to get some things done. Maybe her list of priorities isn't the exact same list other Democrats would come up with, but at the very least they should all agree that now is the time for action, not retreat. Because she is definitely right about that.
-- Chris Weigant
Follow Chris on Twitter: @ChrisWeigant
All true, but finally drawing the pandemic to a real ends would help too. As would full and unfettered access to pie.
I wonder ifthe timing of striking such a deal might be, like the J6 Committee public hearings, hostage to the need to see how Covid plays out and what happens in Ukraine, first.
Stuff getting lost in the shuffle almost might not have happened at all. Obama's spy chiefs warning of Russian interference efforts on the same day the Access Hollywood tape story broke is a good example.
JL
FPC
Kyle Rittenhouse's acquittal was probably the right decision, but that doesn't mean he was justified putting himself in a position where acquittal for homicide was necessary. If citizen activism results in having to kill somebody, you're probably not doing it right.
As I said, there is a rational argument for KR not putting himself in that situation.
But it's fact that he had the right to do what he did and he had the right to arm himself..
I would also point out that the choice to kill was not one of KR's making. The decision to kill was forced upon KR by Democrat BLM thugs. It's notable that no one here has condemned THOSE people for the assaults and attacks on KR...
Irregardless of that, it's universally agreed that a NOT GUILTY verdict was the factually correct verdict to render..
Justice was served. Which is a rarity these days in situations of this type. Kim Potter comes to mind.
You can't possibly be serious, Russ ... with respect to the killing of George Floyd, I mean ...
The facts, Liz.. Look at JUST the facts.. Divorce yourself from emotion..
Yes, Fauxchohantas is factually accurate..
Democrats ARE toast in November..
But the idea that Democrats need to move FURTHER Left to win??
THAT is a LAUGHABLE notion...
When are Democrats going to learn??
It's NOT the messaging that Americans hate in Democrats.
It's the message...
The facts overwhelmingly support this fact..
And, once again, the courts slap down Biden's dystopian actions in keeping America free from a despot's dictatorship ways...
Judge Throws Out Federal Mask Mandate for Public Transportation
Federal judge in Florida says Biden administration’s Covid-19 mandate exceeds CDC’s authority
https://www.wsj.com/articles/judge-throws-out-federal-mask-mandate-for-public-transportation-11650306480
Aren't ya'all glad ya have me around?? How else would ya'all be so informed!?? :D
The economy is doing great, except for inflation --
"Other than that, how did you like the play, Mrs Lincoln??"
Like Democrats, Disney has doubled down on stoopid...
The FACTS are clear...
And once again, the policies of the Democrat Party hurt the very people that Democrats claim they want to help..
Massive increase in Black Americans murdered was result of defund police movement: experts
Black Americans were disproportionately affected by the skyrocketing murders of 2020
https://www.foxnews.com/us/black-americans-paid-enormous-price-for-defund-the-police-movement
I am sure there is a 'hoist' and a 'Picard' in there somewhere.. :D
No matter how anyone wants to spin it, the Democrat Party's DEFUND, DEMORALIZE, DEMONIZE THE POLICE policies have totally scroo'ed over black Americans and totally scroo'ed over the Democrat Party..
If only someone had TOLD ya'all what a BAD IDEA DEFUND, DEMORALIZE, DEMONIZE THE POLICE was...
Oh... Wait... :D
Rather then quote the ^^^^ article (which I know ya'all HATE!! :D) I suggest ya'all read it..
You will be amazed at the FACTS that show the explosion of murder and violent crimes that occurred after Democrats pushed their DEFUND, DEMORALIZE, DEMONIZE THE POLICE policies...
Rather then quote the ^^^^ article (which I know ya'all HATE!! :D) I suggest ya'all read it..
"So, it was either wear the leather jacket, which I KNOW you hate.. Or this. So I wore this utterly ridiculous outfit.... For you.."
-Joe Pesci, MY COUSIN VINNY
:D
“When we get ready to take the United States, we will not take you under the label of Communism. We will not take you under the label of Socialism. … We will take the United States under labels we have made very lovable; we will take it under Liberalism, under Progressivism, under Democracy. But take it we will.”
-Alexander Trachtenberg
National Convention of Communist Parties
Madison Square Garden, 1944
Considering the fight that's going on over Titter, this is pretty scary...
Biden in charge??? Sheeya, right.. :^/
'Easter Bunny' whisks Biden away as he starts discussing Afghanistan: video
It remains unclear who was wearing the outfit
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/easter-bunny-whisks-biden-away-as-he-starts-discussing-afghanistan
Even the Easter Bunny handles Biden... :^/
"How bad does the White House staff have to think Biden is to calculate that sending in the EASTER BUNNY to interrupt a gaggle is better optics than whatever he was about to say on Afghanistan?"
I know, right!?? :^/
Michale,
Divorce yourself from emotion..
You should know better than that. Try to not waste my time, okay?
If you are saying that you can't separate the emotion from the facts, OK... I get that.. It's hard to do..
But in the case of George Floyd, the emotional argument is 180 diametrically opposed to the facts of the case..
And the FACTS clearly prove beyond ANY doubt that George Floyd was a dead man walking..
Floyd's family is extremely lucky.. If the police hadn't been involved Floyd would have just been another OD statistic and his family wouldn't have gotten millions and millions of dollars to blow on drugs and new cars and such.. :^/
"We understand and agree that this has been an incredibly heart-wrenching issue. We’ve watched the photos of Haitians gathering under a bridge, many with families, and the horrific video of the CBP officers on horses using brutal and inappropriate measures against innocent people."
-Jen Saki
Has this moron apologized to the BP agents she maliciously and disgustingly slandered???
Of course not..
Being a Democrat means never having to say you're sorry.. :^/
@m,
Keep in mind, Russ is not arguing that the depraved indifference on chauvins part didn't happen, just that it wasn't the cause of death. To which i say, you can't factually prove that Floyd would have died that day even if he hadn't been face down on the pavement. Too many variables for any logical certainty. Therefore, there's no way that conviction gets overturned.
Go Woke... Go Broke...
Jon Stewart’s Struggles Add to List of Streaming Talk Show Flops
(Bloomberg) -- Streaming services have already proved that they can produce Oscar-winning movies, Emmy-worthy dramatic series and high-profile live sports.
But there’s one genre that the new wave of home entertainment platforms have yet to figure out: talk shows. Witness the current stumbles of Jon Stewart. His Apple TV+ show, “The Problem with Jon Stewart,” which debuted in September, has failed to gain traction in its first season and lags far behind its competitors on broadcast and cable TV.
https://www.bloombergquint.com/onweb/jon-stewart-s-the-problem-on-apple-tv-joins-streaming-talk-show-slump
When are Democrat Trump/America haters going to learn??
America hate and America bashing DON'T SELL very well..
One only has to see the demise of the Democrat Party in the last 16 months to know this is fact... :^/
If you are saying that you can't separate the emotion from the facts, OK... I get that.. It's hard to do..
YOU KNOW THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M SAYING.
NOW, please stop wasting my time with your nonsense.
Keep in mind, Russ is not arguing that the depraved indifference on chauvins part didn't happen, just that it wasn't the cause of death.
NO ONE can prove depraved indifference because no one can read the mind of Derek Chauvin..
So arguing that point is irrational and futile..
*I* roll my eyes at all the hysterical BS from the Democrat cop haters.. That COULD be labeled as "depraved indifference" to Floyd's death..
Doesn't mean I am responsible for Floyd's death.. It simply means, I don't give a rat's ass about some druggie cop hater who fights cops..
To which i say, you can't factually prove that Floyd would have died that day even if he hadn't been face down on the pavement.
Sure ya can.. The coroner's own statements confirm that claim..
Too many variables for any logical certainty.
Unless someone has experience in the vast majority of those "variables"...
Therefore, there's no way that conviction gets overturned.
This conviction gets over-turned based on the extortion of Democrat so-called "leadership"...
When you have Democrat leaders stating unequivocally that they will riot and loot and burn the streets down if the verdict they want is not rendered, that's gross and perverse jury tampering..
THAT will be the basis of the reversal on appeal..
The *ONLY* reason this went to trial is because of Democrat racism..
If Floyd have been white, you and I would not even be having this conversation..
You know it.. I know it..
Floyd was the instrument of his own death..
First by ingesting 4x the lethal limits of meth and fentynal.. Second by choosing to fight the law..
The law won..
End of story..
If you have a suspended license and you get into a car accident that is not your fault, LEGALLY (and morally mebbe) you are at fault.. Because you shouldn't have been driving in the first place..
Floyd was in the process of committing several crimes when he died.. Ergo, his death is on him.. Solely, unequivocally and legally...
Anything else is just Democrat Pro-Criminal bullshit..
Now, Tamir Rice.. THAT was a tragedy... I feel sorry for the family of Tamir and for the cop who will have to live with the fact he killed an innocent child. That will haunt that poor cop til that cop's dying day..
But Floyd?? meh... Today's society is better without the Floyds or the Martins or the Browns in it...
Who knows how many lives had been saved and how many lives NOT decimated or upended by the early demise of Floyd or Brown or Martin...
Hell, Floyd or Brown or Martin might have become an even BIGGER Frank James...
No one should mourn the passing of the likes of those scumbags..
There is your "depraved indifference".. Personally, I call it acceptance of the reality of the here and now...
Toe-MAY-toe Poe-TAY-toe.... :^/
Well, how apropos...
The Legend of Trayvon Martin
One would think, with a decade’s hindsight, that we would be able to see the facts more clearly. And the fact is that most of the narrative that the media has bought and sold over these last ten years has been false. I won’t relitigate the case here (for that you can watch Joel Gilbert’s documentary, The Trayvon Hoax), but the idea that the shooting constituted a racist attack that was then excused by a racist judicial system simply does not reflect reality.
https://glennloury.substack.com/p/the-legend-of-trayvon-martin?s=r
Russ is dead on ballz accurate with his indictment of the Democrat Party Media System Of Justice..
It's based on NOTHING but lies... Complete and utter fabrications..
In a word.. TOTAL BULLSHIT...
And let's not forget..
It was Trayvon Martin who gave this country BLM...
Another reason to revile and throw Martin on the trash heap of history..
Biden has told Obama he’s running again
President Biden has told former President Obama that he is planning to run for reelection in 2024, two sources tell The Hill.
The admission to Obama is the latest indication that Biden is likely to run for a second term, something the president has spoken about publicly.
https://thehill.com/news/administration/3272281-biden-has-told-obama-hes-running-again/
Perfect..
Let's see how a LEGAL and FAIR election free from Democrat cheating actually plays out.. :D
DH,
We'll never likely agree on much, if everything..
But if you want me to actually respond to comments, don't just list the # of the comment..
Quote specifically what you want me to respond to rather than just a number. Use the italics attribute to quote specifically what you are questioning..
In THIS case, it's obvious what you are responding to..
But when you use just a number and the comment at that number is a huge comment, I am not going to waste my time trying to divine exactly what you are questioning..
It's as I said before..
If you want specific answers you are going to have to give me specific questions..
In other words, it's not my job to try and figure out exactly what you are asking. It's YOUR job to make clear exactly what you are asking..
Hear that sound, Weigantians... The soft grind of stone walls on stone floor???
The walls are closing in.. :D
Can't wait for the trial of the century next month.. :D It's gonna be a hoot.. :D
Unless of course, Sussman comes down with a severe case of Epstein-itis and is Vince Foster'ed..
It's simply AMAZING how many people connected to the Clintons die an untimely death...
The CIA concluded that the data was "fake".. "Not plausible" "conflicting" "user created" "not machine generated"...
Don't ya'all feel the LEAST bit embarrassed for swallowing such a con hook, line and sinker??
Once again, another case of WANTING to believe the bullshit...
On topic. Yeah, Fauxcahontas is totally"right" (as in
"correct", not in "politically right")
There is absolutely no reason why the less-productive/unproductive should have to bother pretending to work. The highly-productive folks are able to produce enough to take care of everybody. We just need to come up with a viable plan for how best to confiscate our "share"!!
What good would that do?
It would get you the specific answers you CLAIM you want..
You would just do as you did in Friday's thread and pretend that I didn't get specific when I did and continue to belch your mouth farts to dodge the issue.
You CLAIM you get specific, yet you can't point to ANY specificity... You simply give a comment # of a comment that is a couple hundred words and demand an explanation on a comment that covers many topics..
You go to such lengths to AVOID specifics, I have to wonder if you really don't WANT to get tied down to specifics..
CRS,
On topic. Yeah, Fauxcahontas is totally"right" (as in
"correct", not in "politically right")
Thank you... I have my moments.. :D
There is absolutely no reason why the less-productive/unproductive should have to bother pretending to work. The highly-productive folks are able to produce enough to take care of everybody. We just need to come up with a viable plan for how best to confiscate our "share"!!
Exactly.. It's why socialism never works..
Because A> you eventually run out of other people's money or B> the people WITH the money get tired of working their ass off and having all their hard work given to those who are lazy and not willing to work for their "success"..
Yunno.. The people who think that society owes them something..
IE Democrats..
Furious liberals revolt after Trump appointed judge lifts mask mandate: 'Idiot airline'
Some called for a boycott of airlines who don't continue requiring maskshttps://www.foxnews.com/politics/pissed-liberals-revolt-after-trump-appointed-judge-lifts-mask-mandate
Po' widdle Democrats.. They can't impose their hysterical fears on other people so now they're pissy and bitchy..
No one is stopping THEM from wearing masks.. Mask up, Democrats.. Have a ball..
Just don't expect the American people to buy into yer hysterical non-science fear-mongering..
Michale
Where you coming from on the "moments" thing? You ain't "Fauxcahontas", that's Elizabeth Warren.
"Sitting for several hours in a tight, enclosed space with 200 coughing, breathing, sneezing strangers?? Yeah, I'm gonna keep wearing my mask on flights for the foreseeable future, and that's all I have to say about that."
-Writer Charlotte Clymer
Fine.. Knock yerself out..
Just respect the freedoms of the people who DON'T buy into your hysterical non-science-based fears...
Don't like it??
Well, EVERYWHERE is walking distance...
You ain't "Fauxcahontas", that's Elizabeth Warren.
Yea, but I posted it..
Every once in a while, I hit one that's universally agreed to be factually accurate.. :D Or, at least it SHOULD be universally agreed..
That's what I meant..
"I'm so frustrated. We have tickets to fly this weekend, which felt like a tolerable risk only because everyone is required to wear a mask. Now we have to sit in a tube with 200 people (some of whom will certainly be + for Covid) and risk getting sick, or cancel our trip. Pissed."
https://www.stickershoppe.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/827-6774.jpg
Nice!!!
Disney wants to run with the political Big Dogs???
DeSantis calls on legislature to target Disney's self governing special status: 'Termination'
The law giving Disney special status has been in place 55 years
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/desantis-calls-on-legislature-to-consider-stripping-disney-of-self-governing-special-status
Fine.. Bring it on, Mickey....
"Ya'all got some really nice benefits and privileges there, Disney... Be a shame if something happened to them..."
Looking forward to the major bitch-slap down that Disney is about to receive... :D
Pure projection on your part and an outright lie.
I did provide the specifics of the comment number and specifically the two sentences that start with the word EXPLAIN.
Should be easy to prove...
Just point to the part where you provided specifics and not just the comment # :D
Give me actual quotes to go along with your comment numbers..
Can you do that??
Apparently, not... :^/
I guess Bashi is smarter than you.
In some areas, yes..
In other areas, he's dumb as a fence post..
Such is life.. :D
But then, that is not that much of an accomplishment as a rock is smarter than you. :D
And yet, you STILL can't provide any specific questions and only rely on vague comment numbers..
Funny how that is, eh? :D
I guess Bashi is smarter than you.
But then, that is not that much of an accomplishment as a rock is smarter than you. :D
Glass houses, professor.
DH
Allow me to paraphrase Morpheus...
"Quit trying to claim you provide specifics and provide specifics!"
DH
Allow me to further illustrate your problem..
Don, please provide specific explanations of comments #164, #165 and #166 here:
http://www.chrisweigant.com/2022/04/15/friday-talking-points-democratic-early-primary-free-for-all/#comments
Stucki [37]
Less-productive/unproductive vs highly-productive:
Is a person living off a generous trust more or less productive than a construction worker busting his ass on site? What are your metrics? Sweat, capitol or a combination of the two?
https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2022/04/918/516/cartoon-041922.jpg?ve=1&tl=1
Hehe.. Now THAT's funny.. :D
Yikes! Brother Don is still on his bender! Dunno how taking himself to a higher level of hostility isn't going to get him a
red card.
Is a person living off a generous trust more or less productive than a construction worker busting his ass on site?
Depends on what the person with the trust fund is actually doing..
For example.. Bruce Wayne is definitely being productive...
Simply having a trust fund is not indicative of productivity...
Psaki fights back tears over Florida's parental rights bill, says it's hurting children's 'lives'
Psaki accused Republicans of driving a 'political wedge issue'
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/psaki-fights-back-tears-slamming-florida-parental-rights-bill-makes-me-completely-crazy
A case can be made for the fact that children forced into gender-bender crisis is ALSO tears-inducing..
The many MANY people who now regret their gender-bending is far more conclusive than those who claim they were traumatized in kindergarten by NOT being able to have help..
I am very much looking forward to hearing thoughts on the Musk/Titter saga from the Weigantian Administrator..
Considering how much of the Titter saga parallels the Weigantia saga, it's a very fertile comparison to explore..
Simply having a trust fund is not indicative of productivity...
What if they are paying more taxes and spending more money in the economy than the construction worker?
Many Democrats are in this group.. The elitists.. The morons that think they are the smartest people in the room and can therefore pass judgment on what others say/do...
They are the ones that get indignant when they are ignored.. "I know what's best for ya'all.. How dare you not pay proper tribute!!"
This Boot asshole seems to fit that category perfectly.. I mean, how Orwellian is it to claim that democracy requires MORE censorship.. :^/
Yup, its not you, Fredo.
It's all the rest of us.
Keep in mind, Russ is not arguing that the depraved indifference on chauvins part didn't happen, just that it wasn't the cause of death.
Exactly! I sincerely wish that Chauvin’s attorneys would have allowed him to testify so he could provide us with answers to some very important questions: Why did you ignore police policy that requires you to respond if someone in your custody is having a medical emergency?
Maybe because medics had been called for Floyd before he was even arrested — he was clearly in distress prior to being handcuffed?
Because Floyd had alerted the officers that he had been diagnosed with COVID and had recently been hospitalized as a result; Chauvin did not think it was safe to try CPR on someone with COVID-19?
Chauvin might have been able to explain his actions that day that made him appear cold and uncaring. He’s definitely guilty of negligence for failing to follow police policy in administering aid; but not murder.
To which i say, you can't factually prove that Floyd would have died that day even if he hadn't been face down on the pavement. Too many variables for any logical certainty. Therefore, there's no way that conviction gets overturned.
THIS IS THE POINT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO MAKE!!! Thank you for putting it better than I was able! There are TOO MANY VARIABLES for any logical certainty as to a single variable alone being the cause of death. That should be the reason for overturning the conviction! When the medical examiner lists contributing factors in a person’s death; all of those things played a role in the death.
You were correct to say that I cannot say that if Floyd had not resisted arrest that he would have died that day. That was not the right way for me to pose it.
The proper question is would Chauvin’s actions that day have caused Floyd’s death if Floyd did not have an enlarged heart, had fentanyl and meth in his system, did not have one artery 90% clogged and two others 75% clogged???
Unless you can say for a fact that Chauvin’s actions alone would have caused Floyd to die, then charging him with murder is wrong! Chauvin had no control over those factors. Had he shot Floyd in the heart, then the ME would not have listed any other contributing factors for his death. The bullet killed him and the person who fired the gun is the person who caused the cause of death!
THIS is why I am so disturbed by the prosecution’s arguments…they know that it is dishonest to say Chauvin’s actions could have been solely responsible for causing George Floyd’s death! Yet that is exactly why they wanted the jury to trust their eyes in determining who killed Floyd.
Let me be clear — Chauvin did a huge disservice to all police that day with his failure to demonstrate any semblance of compassion or concern for Floyd’s well-being. But we must allow the science and the evidence to dictate whether we have met all the criteria necessary for indicting individuals on criminal charges. It’s easy to hate Chauvin and want him to pay after seeing Floyd’s death occur under Chauvin’s knee.
The DA’s prosecution was done in an apparent attempt to avoid more public outrage and destruction. The people were calling for the head’s of the officers involved, and, sadly, those in charge gave into the politics at the cost of the law.
Bashi [51]
A person's productivity is measured solely on the basis of output. Consumption, whether financed by savings (trust fund) or transfer (welfare), has absolutely no connection to productivity. Just common sense, right? What other metric could there be?
DH,
Why should I have to explain specifics of Listen's comments?
Because I asked you to.. Just like you are asking me to explain specifics of another long comment.
But it's unfair of me to ask you for specifics in Russ' comments when I won't be specific on what I want you to explain..
Just as it's unfair of you to ask for specifics when you won't specify what you need specifics on..
And claiming you already gave specifics when everyone here knows you haven't is not a claim of fact..
If you want me to provide specific answers, you need to ask specific questions..
QUOTE what you want an answer to..
Just specifying a comment # of a long comment is disingenuous and intellectually dishonest..
Michale [27]
Now, Tamir Rice.. THAT was a tragedy... I feel sorry for the family of Tamir and for the cop who will have to live with the fact he killed an innocent child. That will haunt that poor cop til that cop's dying day..
Yes, it was a tragedy. No, the officer did not kill an innocent child. He killed a young man who had been pointing what his random victims believed was a small handgun at their heads as they passed him in the park. Rice was laughing at the terrified reactions he could illicit.
Yes, it ended up being a toy gun that he was brandishing — one so realistic looking that by law toy makers had to color it bright orange or red so to let people know it was a toy in order for the company to sell them in this country. When Rice “played” with it, the orange had been painted over with black so that it looked just like a real gun.
When I was 5, my grandfather took me shopping with him to the hardware store. I was standing next to my grandfather when the clerk who was helping him turned and smiled at me and I, wanting to look tough, brought my fingers up and shot him with my imaginary finger-gun. My grandfather grabbed me, walked me outside and proceeded to give me the whooping of my short life! He told me that I was never to pretend that I was shooting any adult because if they believe that I was really going to hurt someone, that the police would shoot me and it would be my fault. Never point anything that could be confused as a gun at a stranger!
He had tears in his eyes as he told me this…and having never seen my big muscled grandfather who worked as a police officer sound that fearful as he warned me of the dangers that my actions could have caused; it left such a lasting impression that I still to this day follow his warning.
I wish someone in Rice’s life and taken the time to teach him this lesson as well.
Russ,
I wish Chauvin had testified, too.
He surely would have been asked why he (and the other three officers there) didn't turn Floyd on his side when he was having trouble breathing. Or, better yet, why didn't they let him sit up with his hands cuffed behind him, until the medics arrived.
What were they reasonably afraid of? Why, in fact, were they so afraid in that situation that they couldn't do one little thing to help Floyd breath until the medics came.
Actually, come to think of it, they wouldn't let Floyd breath by doing one little thing even AFTER the medics arrived.
This ain't rocket - or, even medical, science. ;)
Liz,
He surely would have been asked why he (and the other three officers there) didn't turn Floyd on his side when he was having trouble breathing. Or, better yet, why didn't they let him sit up with his hands cuffed behind him, until the medics arrived.
I am guessing the answer would likely be that they kept him face down because Floyd had already fought and resisted arrest and face down allowed them to control his movement easiest. He had been able to sit up… but then he chose to fight the officers when they tried to put him in the back of a patrol car.
What were they reasonably afraid of? Why, in fact, were they so afraid in that situation that they couldn't do one little thing to help Floyd breath until the medics came.
They weren’t afraid of anything. Sitting up is a privilege. Mr. Floyd lost that privilege when he chose to resist them. The police likely ignored Floyd’s cries for help because the hundreds of arrests prior to Floyd’s — where the person in custody was screaming and complaining that they couldn’t breathe — were perfectly fine when they got them to the jail. As a former EMT, I cannot tell you how many combative drunks we were called to assist the police with that every one of them complained that they couldn’t breathe or their wrists were broken…and none of them required medical aid!
The police hear “I can’t breathe!” all the time and it almost never amounts to anything. Floyd was one time out of millions of calls for service where the person was in respiratory distress. If the police had to stop everything anytime a person in custody said they do not fill well, crime would run rampant!
And as the ME said Floyd’s cause of death was cardiopulmonary arrest, allowing him to sit up would not have helped his breathing. His lungs were filling with fluid and he was drowning. There is no treating someone who is suffering from cardiopulmonary arrest…they are dying right before your eyes!
And because the police should not be held responsible for a person’s medical conditions that they had no idea existed, it is ridiculous to think the officers in Floyd’s case deserve to be charged.
Do you know what cardiopulmonary arrest is, Russ?
Russ, quite a lot about this case is ridiculous, particularly where the actions of four police officers are concerned - police officers who are not able to discern one situation from another and act accordingly and, consequently, a person dies in their custody.
These officers are responsible for the unnecessary death of George Floyd, anyway you slice (or spin) it.
I sure do hope that most police officers in the US receive better training than these four.
And, I disgree that these officers were not afraid. Being afraid seems to be a quality most of them harbour. Well, it could be just a simple case of loving being in power of someone, too, regardless of the situational circumstances.
And, as long as that attitude of policing continues, there will be more George Floyds and the real and brutal criminals - the ones police should have a healthy fear of - will run free.
Russ,
I am guessing the answer would likely be that they kept him face down because Floyd had already fought and resisted arrest and face down allowed them to control his movement easiest. He had been able to sit up… but then he chose to fight the officers when they tried to put him in the back of a patrol car.
Would they have been stupid enough to provide an answer like that!?
Okay, let's say they are.
Next question. Wouldn't it have been just as easy to simply roll him just very slightly so that he was on his side, handcuffed with four officers holding him down, until the medics arrived?
How do you think they would have answered that, Russ?
Maybe they would have said that they weren't familiar with the mechanics of human breath.
Russ,
The police likely ignored Floyd’s cries for help because the hundreds of arrests prior to Floyd’s — where the person in custody was screaming and complaining that they couldn’t breathe — were perfectly fine when they got them to the jail.
This is precisely my argument!
These officers - and, perhaps, most officers, everywhere - have very little capability when it comes to discerning one situation from another and then to change the way they act, accordingly. This is a very, very important aspect of policing. Without this ability, police are not able to perform their duties in a logical, safe and effective manner. Which can very easily lead to the unacceptable death of a person in their custody.
Russ,
If the police had to stop everything anytime a person in custody said they do not fell well, crime would run rampant
Now, THAT is a ridiculous statement.
I trust the other three officers in this case won't be using that as a reason for their actions!
Russ,
And because the police should not be held responsible for a person’s medical conditions that they had no idea existed, it is ridiculous to think the officers in Floyd’s case deserve to be charged.
Finally, another patently ridiculous statement.
The officers' lack of knowledge of Floyd's medical condition(s) should have no bearing, whatsoever, on their actions to restrain him.
Your statement(s) imply that the officers had no common sense and no ability to understand what is happening in their presence. You may be right. Which is pretty scary.
By the way ... didn't the ME rule Floyd's death a homocide?
Who killed Floyd? :)