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Friday Talking Points -- She Slices! She Dices! She Does Not Lose Her Edge!

[ Posted Friday, September 13th, 2024 – 16:30 UTC ]

This week, millions of Americans tuned in to politics only to make an astonishing discovery: Donald Trump is still exactly who he always was! He opens his mouth, and lies and crazy talk pour forth. Same as it ever was... what a surprise!

Now, normal people can be excused for being surprised that Trump is still Trump. Most people have lives to lead and plenty of other things to do, so they simply don't pay much attention to politics. But tens of millions of them made the time this week to tune in to the first debate between Donald Trump and Kamala Harris. And it was like going to a family Thanksgiving dinner and once again having to put up with your crazy uncle -- because you had somehow forgotten just how bad he truly was. And still is.

The news media, however, have no such excuse. Up until now, they've been largely engaged in what has become known as "sane-washing," which essentially means: "listening to Trump's gibberish and then reporting on it as if he is wisely proposing new policy ideas." That sort of went out the window this Tuesday, as America beheld Trump's insanity, unwashed for all to see.

This was all summed up brilliantly (and hilariously) by the Washington Post's resident satirist, Alexandra Petri last week. Mind you, this was before the debate was held:

I found it! The machine! The wonderful machine that they have at all news production headquarters. Its input is Donald Trump's remarks; its output is headlines. Everything makes sense now.

It functions somewhat like a juicer. You insert Trump's remarks at one end, turn a crank (you have to turn it pretty hard; the machine does a lot of heavy lifting and twisting) and then -- Presto! -- out comes the headline or chyron produced by those remarks. I had long been wondering where we were getting these headlines and chyrons. You glance up idly at a muted television and see "DONALD TRUMP DELIVERS REMARKS ON ECONOMY," and you think, "Ah, presidential at last!" And as long as you do not make the mistake of unmuting your television, the machine's work is complete. If you are silly enough to unmute your television, you find yourself thinking, "I don't know what those are, but I would not describe them as remarks about the economy."

A similar process occurs in print. If it were not for the machine, we would have headlines every day like "Would-Be President Rambles Unintelligibly For Eighty Minutes After Promising He Would Speak About The Economy; At Intervals We Glimpsed Something In The Torrent Of Words That If Pulled Out And Dried Off Might Become A Policy Idea, So We Sent Several Guys In After It, But None Of Them Returned Alive, Except For One Guy Who Just Said 'The Horror, The Horror' After We Retrieved Him And He's Now Staring Off Silently Into The Void. Is Donald Trump Entirely Well? Harris Also Delivered Remarks But Not As Many As We Wanted." Maybe we should have those headlines, but, thanks to the machine, we don't.

Maybe... just maybe... now we will start seeing headlines a lot closer to reality. But then again, maybe not. The double standard sees pretty baked in to the mainstream media, so perhaps they'll revert to writing headlines such as: "Trump Praises Haitian Immigrants For Their Cuisine." It certainly wouldn't surprise us, but then we can be pretty cynical about such things.

If you still doubt this double standard exists, just consider for a moment what the media would have said if Joe Biden had given just one of Trump's insane debate answers. Think of how Biden was treated after his own disastrous debate performance, and then look at coverage of Trump's. Are there mental health experts being interviewed to state their opinion as to how far Trump's brain has deteriorated? Are there editorials being written begging the Republican Party to pull the nomination from someone so obviously unfit to serve? If there are, we haven't seen them.

Kudos to HuffPost, at least, for pointing out an entirely different double standard, by running the post-debate headline: "Debate Suggests Men May Be Too Emotional To Be President." Turnabout is definitely fair play, don't you think?

The mainstream media does seem to be at least dipping a toe in the waters of reality-based reporting, but they're too timid to truly take on Trump so instead they are currently training their focus on Laura Loomer, who has recently been flying around with Trump in his plane. Loomer is a conspiracy-theorist and unabashed racist who is so far around the bend that she was denounced this week by Marjorie Taylor Greene. Think about that for a moment -- the irony of having Greene denounce you as a dangerous nutball. Trump was actually asked about Loomer at a press conference today, but refused to disavow anything she's said recently (this is after she went with him to a 9/11 memorial ceremony at Ground Zero, even though she spreads conspiracy theories about it all being an inside job). Perhaps if the media can get Trump to dump Loomer they'll focus their energies more on the conspiracies that Trump spreads, but perhaps that is too much to ask for.

But back to that debate. It was so bad for Trump -- such a spectacular meltdown of a trainwreck of a Dumpster fire -- that even people on Fox News had to admit Trump badly lost. There was no getting around it. Choose your metaphor: Kamala Harris ate Trump's lunch... or mopped the floor with Trump... or baited him just like a fish... or kicked his ass.... There are tons to choose from!

Harris looked presidential, while Trump looked downright certifiable. Harris masterfully trolled Trump, and he took the bait each and every time. Trump spouted so many lies the moderators had to actually correct a few of them (something that was sorely missing in the first debate). No, post-birth abortion is not legal anywhere in America. No, immigrants aren't eating cats and dogs in Ohio. Harris mostly brushed aside Trump's lies without attempting to fact-check them, which was certainly one way to go about it. She laughed at Trump being extreme, which only further enraged him.

Immediately after the debate, Harris challenged Trump to debate again, which is a pretty clear indication of how confident she felt. Trump waffled for a while, then proclaimed in all caps on his pet social media site that there would be "NO THIRD DEBATE!" Chicken memes began springing up all over social media, in response. "TrumpIsACoward" trended on the former Twitter. But Trump is infamous for changing his mind, so perhaps we will get to see another debate soon? Nobody really knows, but it's pretty obvious only one candidate is now eager for another matchup, and it's pretty obvious why. We should also mention that Harris raked in another $47 million in donations in the first 24 hours after the debate, which is another good indicator of victory.

To cap the evening off, after Harris was finished slicing and dicing Trump (and leaving little pieces of him strewn about the stage), she was then immediately endorsed by Taylor Swift (within a day, her endorsement had been "liked" by over 10 million people). It really is hard to imagine how the night could have gone better for Harris.

JD Vance responded with an "own-goal," saying in an interview: "We admire Taylor Swift's music, but I don't think most Americans, whether they like her music or [are] fans of hers or not, are going to be influenced by a billionaire celebrity who I think is fundamentally disconnected from the interests and problems of most Americans." Um... dude... have you met Donald Trump? Seriously....

Following this up, yet another prominent Republican endorsed Harris as well -- former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales.

Of course, the real question is whether anybody's mind will change as a result of the debate. Almost 70 million people watched the debate live on television, but this doesn't count those who streamed it or watched the whole thing later, so it likely reached a lot more than that. But American voters have become so tribal that any movement in the polls isn't likely to be overwhelming, at this point. Still, it will be interesting to see what numbers show up in the next week or so. The first two reputable post-debate polls that have come in both showed Harris with a five-point lead nationally, which seems to be a good sign so far.

Personally, we were left with the image we used for our headline today. The whole thing was like a 90-minute version of an old Ronco ad for a kitchen aid: She slices! She dices! She does not lose her edge! It really is hard to even picture how this week's debate could have gone any better for Kamala Harris -- it was that good.

 

Most Impressive Democrat Of The Week

This may be the briefest explanation for the Most Impressive Democrat Of The Week in this column's history, because we only really need five words to do it. To use a line from the old game show Hollywood Squares:

"Kamala Harris, for the win."

[Congratulate Vice President Kamala Harris on her official White House contact page, to let her know you appreciate her efforts.]

 

Most Disappointing Democrat Of The Week

Once again, there were no disappointing Democrats to speak of this week (we're not going to count Joe Biden briefly wearing a MAGA hat, because we are in such a good mood), so perhaps we've achieved "the shortest awards section ever" in 766 of these columns.

 

Friday Talking Points

Volume 766 (9/13/24)

Because of the big debate, we're not even going to attempt to write our own talking points this week. Instead, we're going to pull some of the best talking points we heard from the transcript of the debate, since (quite obviously) Kamala Harris didn't need anyone's help coming up with some zingers.

Most presidential debates are remembered afterwards for one or two moments, but the debate this week had so many moments jam-packed into it (both good ones for Harris and pathetic ones for Trump) that we had to struggle to even cut it all down to just the following. So here what we thought were the strongest talking points from Kamala Harris this Tuesday night.

In her very first answer, Harris unveiled her theme for the entire evening:

I was raised as a middle-class kid. And I am actually the only person on this stage who has a plan that is about lifting up the middle class and working people of America. I believe in the ambition, the aspirations, the dreams of the American people. And that is why I imagine and have actually a plan to build what I call an opportunity economy.

It didn't take her long to begin to get under Trump's skin. After Trump claimed (wrongly) that the American economy while he was in office was "one of the greatest in the history of our country," Harris clapped back with some truths, and warned the viewers what they could expect from Trump tonight:

Let's talk about what Donald Trump left us. Donald Trump left us the worst unemployment since the Great Depression. Donald Trump left us the worst public health epidemic in a century. Donald Trump left us the worst attack on our democracy since the Civil War. And what we have done is clean up Donald Trump's mess. What we have done and what I intend to do is build on what we know are the aspirations and the hopes of the American people. But I'm going to tell you all, in this debate tonight, you're going to hear from the same old, tired playbook, a bunch of lies, grievances and name-calling.

Which, of course, turned out to be an accurate prediction.

Harris really hit her stride on the issue of abortion and women's rights. Which was as expected, but it bears pointing out that this is the strongest position any presidential candidate has ever taken on a debate stage. It was historic, in other words, even though entirely expected (since the issue is such a strong point for Harris). Just after Trump repeated his two main lies about abortion (that "everybody" wanted to see Roe v. Wade overturned, and that Democrats were allowing post-birth abortions), Harris hit back on the first one.

[I]n over 20 states there are Trump abortion bans which make it criminal for a doctor or nurse to provide health care. In one state it provides prison for life. Trump abortion bans that make no exception even for rape and incest. Which, understand what that means. A survivor of a crime, a violation to their body, does not have the right to make a decision about what happens to their body next. That is immoral. And one does not have to abandon their faith or deeply held beliefs to agree the government, and Donald Trump certainly, should not be telling a woman what to do with her body. I have talked with women around our country. You want to talk about this is what people wanted? Pregnant women who want to carry a pregnancy to term suffering from a miscarriage, being denied care in an emergency room because the health care providers are afraid they might go to jail and she's bleeding out in a car in the parking lot? She didn't want that. Her husband didn't want that. A 12 or 13-year-old survivor of incest being forced to carry a pregnancy to term? They don't want that.

The subject of the border and immigration was then raised by the moderators, and Harris had her answer ready:

I'm the only person on this stage who has prosecuted transnational criminal organizations for the trafficking of guns, drugs, and human beings. And let me say that the United States Congress, including some of the most conservative members of the United States Senate, came up with a border security bill which I supported. And that bill would have put 1,500 more border agents on the border to help those folks who are working there right now over time trying to do their job. It would have allowed us to stem the flow of fentanyl coming into the United States. I know there are so many families watching tonight who have been personally affected by the surge of fentanyl in our country. That bill would have put more resources to allow us to prosecute transnational criminal organizations for trafficking in guns, drugs and human beings. But you know what happened to that bill? Donald Trump got on the phone, called up some folks in Congress, and said kill the bill. And you know why? Because he preferred to run on a problem instead of fixing a problem.

In the same answer, Harris also baited Trump with the one thing she knew he would respond to. She unsheathed her sharpest trolling weapon and wielded it perfectly:

I'm going to actually do something really unusual and I'm going to invite you to attend one of Donald Trump's rallies because it's a really interesting thing to watch. You will see during the course of his rallies he talks about fictional characters like Hannibal Lecter. He will talk about "windmills cause cancer." And what you will also notice is that people start leaving his rallies early out of exhaustion and boredom.

Trump, quite predictably, exploded. He fulminated about his rally crowd sizes, her rally crowd sizes, and then moved right on to: "They're eating the dogs.... They're eating the cats." This was universally crowned Trump's worst moment of the entire debate, for good reason.

Harris, invited to respond, brushed Trump's crazy talk off and went to the heart of the problem instead:

Talk about extreme. Um, you know, this is I think one of the reasons why in this election I actually have the endorsement of 200 Republicans who have formally worked with President Bush, Mitt Romney, and John McCain, including the endorsement of former Vice President Dick Cheney and Congressmember Liz Cheney. And if you want to really know the inside track on who the former president is, if he didn't make it clear already, just ask people who have worked with him. His former chief of staff, a four-star general, has said he has contempt for the Constitution of the United States. His former national security adviser has said he is dangerous and unfit. His former secretary of defense has said the nation, the republic would never survive another Trump term. And when we listen to this kind of rhetoric, when the issues that affect the American people are not being addressed, I think the choice is clear in this election.

The taunting didn't stop there, though. Harris responded to Trump lying about crime rates with another masterful skewering of her opponent:

Well, I think this is so rich. Coming from someone who has been prosecuted for national security crimes, economic crimes, election interference, has been found liable for sexual assault and his next big court appearance is in November at his own criminal sentencing.

Trump blathered for a while, then Harris brought it all back to the stakes in the election for the American people:

Well let's talk about extreme. And understand the context in which this election in 2024 is taking place. The United States Supreme Court recently ruled that the former president would essentially be immune from any misconduct if he were to enter the White House again. Understand, this is someone who has openly said he would terminate, I'm quoting, terminate the Constitution of the United States. That he would weaponize the Department of Justice against his political enemies. Someone who has openly expressed disdain for members of our military. Understand what it would mean if Donald Trump were back in the white house with no guardrails. Because certainly, we know now the Court won't stop him. We know JD Vance is not going to stop him. It's up to the American people to stop him.

A little later, she followed up on this theme, after the moderators got Trump to repeat his Big Lie about the 2020 election somehow being stolen from him. So Harris went for the jugular, pointing out how insane and unfit Trump truly was and still is for the highest office in the land:

Donald Trump was fired by 81 million people. So, let's be clear about that. And clearly, he is having a very difficult time processing that. But we cannot afford to have a president of the United States who attempts as he did in the past to upend the will of the voters in a free and fair election. And I'm going to tell you that I have traveled the world as vice president of the United States. And world leaders are laughing at Donald Trump. I have talked with military leaders, some of whom worked with you. And they say you're a disgrace. And when you then talk in this way in a presidential debate and deny what over and over again are court cases you have lost -- because you did in fact lose that election -- it leads one to believe that perhaps we do not have in the candidate to my right the temperament or the ability to not be confused about fact. That's deeply troubling. And the American people deserve better.

Trump then retreated to Fantasyland, where he would end the war in Ukraine "when I'm President-Elect," solving the problem before he even entered office (which would be against federal law, by the way, if it did happen that way). And Trump had lots of nasty things to say about President Joe Biden, so Harris jumped in with another reminder that Trump is losing his marbles for all of America to see:

Well, first of all, it's important to remind the former president you're not running against Joe Biden, you're running against me.

She ended her answer with a prediction of what would happen if Trump did get into office, with a nice hook for Pennsylvania voters buried in it:

Putin would be sitting in Kyiv with his eyes on the rest of Europe. Starting with Poland. And why don't you tell the 800,000 Polish Americans right here in Pennsylvania how quickly you would give up for the sake of favor and what you think is a friendship, with what is known to be a dictator, who would eat you for lunch.

When the subject of Afghanistan came up, Harris reminded everyone of how Trump handled the situation:

And as of today, there is not one member of the United States military who is in active duty in a combat zone in any war zone around the world, the first time this century. But let's understand how we got to where we are. Donald Trump when he was president negotiated one of the weakest deals you can imagine. He calls himself a dealmaker. Even his national security adviser said it was a weak, terrible deal. And here's how it went down. He bypassed the Afghan government. He negotiated directly with a terrorist organization called the Taliban. The negotiation involved the Taliban getting 5,000 terrorists, Taliban terrorists released. And get this -- no, get this. And the president at the time invited the Taliban to Camp David. A place of storied significance for us as Americans, a place where we honor the importance of American diplomacy, where we invite and receive respected world leaders. And this former president as president invited them to Camp David because he does not again appreciate the role and responsibility of the President of the United States to be commander in chief with a level of respect.

Towards the end, Harris returned to her agenda for the future, listed several of her policy ideas, and concluded in sweeping fashion:

That's the kind of conversation I believe, David, that people really want tonight as opposed to a conversation that is constantly about belittling and name-calling. Let's turn the page and move forward.

She returned to this overall theme in her closing statement, which began with:

So I think you've heard tonight two very different visions for our country. One that is focused on the future and the other that is focused on the past. And an attempt to take us backward. But we're not going back. And I do believe that the American people know we all have so much more in common than what separates us and we can chart a new way forward.

All in all, Harris did a fantastic job showing the American people the contrast between her positive and forward-looking agenda and Trump's complete and utter incoherence.

We won't know until next week how all of this affects the polls, but again, we have to say it is hard to picture how Kamala Harris could have had a better debate -- or how Donald Trump could have had a worse one, for that matter.

-- Chris Weigant

 

Follow Chris on Twitter: @ChrisWeigant

 

26 Comments on “Friday Talking Points -- She Slices! She Dices! She Does Not Lose Her Edge!”

  1. [1] 
    John From Censornati wrote:

    I'm enjoying that Florida Man is dragging that Loomer gargoyle around. He's getting a lotta heat and one has to wonder how long it is before he says that he's never heard of her.

    It seems like he's experiencing diminishing returns for all of his con man moves. He doesn't seem to know it, but I think he's stuck with her. He'll be sad as she morphs from fluffer to anchor.

  2. [2] 
    John From Censornati wrote:

    Trump is infamous for changing his mind, so perhaps we will get to see another debate soon?

    His spirit animal is the chicken, but he's a delusional chicken. He knows he's in big trouble and another debate is the only way to get a big enough audience to turn things around. Hopefully Loomer hangs on long enough to prep him for another one.

    His spine is as stiff as a bowl of chicken fat in the fridge. He said this today:

    I did great in the debates and I think they've answered everything, but maybe if I got in the right mood, I don't know

  3. [3] 
    MtnCaddy wrote:

    Tuesday the po-po rolled through Green Valley Lake announcing a so-called MANDATORY evacuation due to the Line fire. (Note: they can’t actually force people to leave).

    I joined the estimated 20% of all us hillbillies that didn’t go no damn place. Yeah, it’s been smokey but the fire never got closer than four miles and has long since burned due east rather than due north towards where I am.

    The only thing that sucked is that I lost signal Tuesday afternoon so I missed the debate. So thanks for filling in some of the blanks Chris and Weigantia.

  4. [4] 
    ListenWhenYouHear wrote:

    Trump claims that he was the obvious winner of the debate! It wasn’t even close, Trump just had such a good debate performance that no one would question his claims of victory.

    If Trump had such an incredible night at the debate, then why did Trump say that the moderators were just awful? Usually, when one has such a momentous victory at a debate, the winners don’t feel the need to complain about how unfair that they were treated. If you had such an incredible night, it just seems like you would not be complaining about unfair you were treated. You would be running ads showing off your great performance at the debate…but there have been ZERO of those ads run. Why, Donald? It almost appears like you did not win the debate against Harris!

    But how can that be?!?!?

  5. [5] 
    italyrusty wrote:

    Re: John From Censornati [1]

    I'm surprised that NO ONE is speculating what Loomer 'brings to the table' for Trump. He is already comfortably in the antisemite/racist camp and she definitely isn't a policy 'wonk'.
    Perhaps it's her servicing him UNDER the table?

  6. [6] 
    italyrusty wrote:

    Here are two honorable mentions for MIDOW.
    'State Sen. Sarah McBride, meanwhile, won the Democratic primary for Delaware’s lone seat in the U.S. House of Representatives and now has the chance to make history as the first openly transgender person elected to Congress.'
    https://apnews.com/article/2024-elections-delaware-primary-politics-21f05b9b8c25a93c83cc80d213d0f8ee

  7. [7] 
    italyrusty wrote:

    '“On her website, Pam claims to have her ‘family’s full support,’” Lynda Carter told Mother Jones. “I have known Pam my entire life, which is why I sadly cannot endorse her for this or any public office.”
    ...
    Lynda Carter, a vocal supporter of reproductive rights, also offered her support to the Democrats running against her sister in Arizona’s Legislative District 4.

    “As a native Arizonan, I am proud to endorse Kelli Butler and Karen Gresham to represent LD4 in Arizona’s State House,” she told Mother Jones. “Kelli and Karen are both strong, experienced candidates, born and raised in Arizona. They are working mothers fighting for the rights that matter most to Arizonans, especially every child’s right to a quality education.”'
    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/lynda-carter-republican-sister-arizona_n_66e4739de4b03e3cc1001d2b

  8. [8] 
    John From Censornati wrote:

    [5] I think you have to keep in mind that Big Orange always says he's smarter than anybody else. He doesn't want those pointy-headed swamp rats on his campaign telling him what to do. He likes having people like Loomer and Lewandowski around because they tell him that his hate speech is the path to victory. What she brings to the table is positive reinforcement (negative reinforcement?).

  9. [9] 
    John From Censornati wrote:

    The talking heads on MSNBC are all up in arms because Loomer "outed a senator". They won't repeat what she said or who she outed. LOL

    If you are unaware that Lindsey Graham is gay, you have not been paying attention. Please don't feel sorry for him. Miss Lindsey made calculated choices that have led to this point.

    Fat Donny likes to tell a story about a snake. Lindsey should have paid attention.

  10. [10] 
    MtnCaddy wrote:

    John
    9

    I understand that his nickname is “Lady Graham” and that he has a bunch of male escorts who have signed NDAs.

    I mean, I read it online so it must be true!

  11. [11] 
    MtnCaddy wrote:

    FPC
    Elizabeth wrote,

    In a masterstroke of irony, it was the Biden administration that finally made a bit of a cynic out of me. I can obviously take a lot and a long while but I catch on eventually, given enough disappointment.

    You’ve been dead wrong that it was somehow Biden’s fault that Putin simply did what Russian rulers have done for centuries. For the record it’s called revanchism and Joe did a fabulous job of unifying NATO and the world against Putin. United like no one (especially Putin)expected in a million years. The only false step was slow walking the necessary armaments and restricting their use in Russia because Putin keeps threatening to use nukes. Like, back to the beginning over sending Javelins.

    Yeah, I am not especially pleased that us Yankees are leading the world in oil production but keeping energy security for ourselves and our allies is important at the moment. It’s just a matter of time before Russia’s four million barrels per day fall off the market and without the actively operating production capacity to take up the slack we’d get $10USD per gallon of petrol…and all of the sudden Trump has a REAL shot at winning in November.

    Other than this Joe has been a truly LBJ-level transformative President and a great surprise for Progressives like me. Besides Ukraine and oil production what else are you correctly or incorrectly mad at Joe about?

  12. [12] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    Caddy,

    Joe did a fabulous job of unifying NATO and the world against Putin.

    That is entirely dependent upon how you define 'unifying' and 'the world'.

    Besides Ukraine and oil production what else are you correctly or incorrectly mad at Joe about?

    More than 40,000 dead Palestinian civilians in Gaza, along with the death of more United Nations personnel than during any other conflict, the re-emergence of Polio as a result of an egregious lack of water and sanitation in the wake of the IDF's destruction of these life-sustaining systems and infrastructure.

    This, more than any other issue, will put a massive stain on the Biden legacy that will never be removed.

  13. [13] 
    MtnCaddy wrote:

    Liz,

    Setting aside the fact that Israel is exerting far more care than say, us Yanks killing a million Iraqis hunting for the WMDs. And the fact that the Jews are being held to a vastly higher standard than [name one] other country.

    (Full disclosure: I hate the West Bank settlements invasion and Israelis — like all that are at war — committing war crimes and I think bleephead Bibi is prolonging this war because when it’s done then he’s done. Facing charges like his buddy Donold. So I see Israel’s warts along with her promise.)

    BUT genocide would be Israel carpet bombing the entirety of Gaza on 9 October year of our Lord 2023.

    What did I miss?

    Now what would you have Joe do differently? If he completely cut Israel off they could fight for months with wha they’ve been stocking up for a rainy day.

  14. [14] 
    John From Censornati wrote:

    AKA Vance states out loud on CNN that the Haitians eating pets lie is a lie:

    If I have to create stories so that the American media actually pays attention to the suffering of the American people, then that's what I'm going to do.

    It is quite a burden to have black people living in one's town. It's odd that the governor and local officials don't feel their constituents' suffering as acutely as Vance and his boss. Fat Donny's middle name is empathy.

  15. [15] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    Caddy,

    BUT genocide would be Israel carpet bombing the entirety of Gaza on 9 October year of our Lord 2023.

    That's a little, if off-colour, joke, right? There is not much left of Gaza right now BUT, granted, it has taken several months!

    Can we at least agree that the IDF have been less than discriminate in their killing of Paletinian (and other) civilians?

    What would I have had Biden do, you ask? No time to answer that at the moment. Be back sometime later...

  16. [16] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    You know what, Caddy ... I have just enough time now ...I'm so done with non-brief, long-winded replies around here...so, here's my bottom line that would have usually been just for starters...

    What do I think Biden should do on this file as he draws his political career to an end?

    He should work toward regime change in Israel and stop sending secretary of state Blinken and other officials there until Israel agrees to end the war and get out of Gaza in exchange for a return of all of the hostages.

    All other options are worse - for Israel and the region and the US.

  17. [17] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    Furthermore, Caddy...

    You’ve been dead wrong that it was somehow Biden’s fault that Putin simply did what Russian rulers have done for centuries.

    You keep repeating this nonsense that I somehow blame Biden for Putin's war(s) in Ukraine. Please stop and engage intelligently.

  18. [18] 
    MtnCaddy wrote:

    Liz
    16

    Forget about Ukraine.

    I totally agree with you on Biden and Gaza.

    Ceasefire to start then hostage exchanges but after that I don’t see how Israel agrees to a two state solution because the Palestinians have never given up wanting to destroy Israel and cannot be trusted. I’d really like to know what nypoet22 thinks about this.

  19. [19] 
    nypoet22 wrote:

    i think the hamas propaganda has been very successful at falsely painting the Israeli military as genocidal or indiscriminate in their attempts to root out the terrorist organization. i think Biden has had an incredibly tight needle to thread on the subject and has done an admirable job in spite of undeserved criticism from practically everyone. i dislike Bibi as much as the next lefty, but most of the challenges in Gaza are only partially his fault.

  20. [20] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    Caddy,

    Here is what Ehud Barak thinks about all of this. His is a voice of reason and reality but those who fail to see the harm that Israel is doing to itself will probably dismiss it as mere propaganda. Which would be quite unwise.

    https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-06-13/ty-article-opinion/.premium/israel-must-oust-its-failed-government-before-it-sinks-into-the-moral-abyss/00000190-1285-d621-abfa-5bb5e9840000

  21. [21] 
    Kick wrote:

    MtnCaddy
    3

    Keep yourself safe, please. :)

  22. [22] 
    nypoet22 wrote:

    ehud barak is sincere and mostly right. the knesset absolutely need to hold elections and get rid of bibi ASAP. but barak's stated positions are aspirational goals, which may or may not stand up to the reality of coalition negotiations. all of which are a part of politics internal to israel, not in any way enforceable or even changeable by any action the US (or europe, or canada for that matter) could possibly take. trying to force the israeli public's hand in any way beyond the symbolic steps president biden has already been taking, would be counterproductive.

  23. [23] 
    Kick wrote:

    nypoet22
    22

    Exactly... definitely counterproductive.

    Perfectly stated. :)

  24. [24] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    The Ehud Barak piece linked to above, JL, was much less a statement of aspirational goals than it was a stark and urgent appeal for an immediate change of course.

  25. [25] 
    nypoet22 wrote:

    Elizabeth, you're missing the point - barak's appeal only matters because it is internal to israelis. yes his words were urgent and intended to spur immediate action, but as i'm sure he's acutely aware, he's not in control of if and how those words are followed.

    and if even a former PM of israel has limited influence, people elsewhere in the world need to understand that their influence is even more limited, and any attempts to overstep that limited influence, even by the closest of allies with the best of intentions, will be met with staunch resistance. president biden clearly gets this. VP Harris appears to get it as well. other individuals may never get it.

  26. [26] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    And, Israel may never get the peace it aspires to achieve. That is the hard reality that Israelis, inside and outside of government need to understand, in my opinion.

    I think most people are acutely aware of how little influence they have over the endless conflict in the Middle East and over what used to be called the Middle East peace process. If any of us were ever under any illusions about that, clear eyes prevail today.

    Unfortunately for the security and indeed survival of the Jewish state, the many policies that Israel is and has been pursuing with regard to its security and long-term well-being have been demonstrably ... what's the word for it ... counterproductive.

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