The Grand Confusion
So here is where we find ourselves -- in a recent CBS poll, two-thirds of the respondents said the current ideas proposed for healthcare were confusing. This is why Obama wanted just two bills to have emerged from Congress at this point -- to lessen this confusion. But this is also largely due to the Democrats utter lack of being to explain themselves coherently, it should also be pointed out.
The poll results show the breadth of this confusion, and how quickly it has set in (you can read a CBS story about the poll results, or download the PDF file with the actual questions and numbers -- it appears to be an excerpt of a longer poll, since the PDF file is only two pages long and is all about healthcare reform).
When asked whether "you have an understanding of healthcare reform ideas," only 31 percent of Americans responded "yes, I understand the reforms" while 67 percent said "no, they're confusing." When asked if "President Obama had clearly explained his plans for healthcare reform," 31 percent responded "yes," and 60 percent "no." Even among Democrats, only 52 percent answered "yes" to that last question.
But the real proof that healthcare reform opponents are winning the battle for the public's attention was in the only numbers which showed a timeline. When asked whether government did a better job at "providing medical care than private insurers," 36 percent said government did a "better job," and 47 percent said a "worse job." Results were also given from two months ago, when those numbers were 50 percent "better job," and 34 percent "worse job." That's a pretty stark turnaround in two months' time.
Which all adds up to mean that the Democrats have been doing a terrible job getting their message out, and their opponents have been doing a dandy job getting theirs out. Unless something changes in the very near future, this slide could easily become irreversible, ending in a failed reform effort and an even more demoralized public on the subject.
Today I read an excellent article by Robert Reich, which is a perfect example of the "herding cats" problem of being a Democrat, which he identifies early on as being: "the left has ideas, and the right has discipline."
You want to know why the left has ideas and the right has discipline? Because people who like ideas and dislike authority tend to identify with the Democratic left, while people who feel threatened by new ideas and more comfortable in a disciplined and ordered world tend to identify with the Republican right. Democrats and progressives let a thousand flowers bloom. Republicans and the right issue directives. This has been the yin and yang of American politics and culture. But it means that the Democratic left's new ideas often fall victim to its own notorious lack of organization and to the right's highly-organized fear mongering.
But the real point of the article is later, after Reich talks of his experience with trying to lead the Democratic rabble. He offhandedly called for a march on Washington for everyone who supports the public option, in an effort to rally the troops and show some strength. But the rest of his story shows exactly what the true problem is:
A few moments later, when someone wrote in asking when, I glanced at a calendar and in a burst of unreflective enthusiasm offered September 13. I didn't check with anyone, didn't strategize with progressive groups that have been working on health care for years, barely checked in with myself.
I was deluged with emails. Many people said they were planning to march. Someone put up a web page, another a Facebook page, a member of Congress announced his support. But most people said they couldn't manage September 13. It was too soon. It conflicted with other events. It followed too closely behind a right-wing march against health care reform already scheduled for September 12. It was a day AFL leaders were out of town, so couldn't lend their support. Many who emailed me wanted another day -- September 20, or the 27th, or early October. Others said they'd rather march on their state capital, in order that local media cover it. When I finally checked in with the heads of several progressive groups and unions in Washington -- all with big mailing lists and the resources to organize a big march -- they said they were already planning a march, for October. But they still haven't given me a date. (I will pass it on as soon as I hear.)
Sigh.
While it's easy to use pop psychology to point out the differences between your average run-of-the-mill Democrat and your average run-of-the-mill Republican, and while one anecdote about a half-serious call to march and the confusion which followed it is not completely indicative of the entire healthcare reform effort, it still makes a valid point.
See, there's a cat that's been eating all the mice. And so the mice got together and decided the best and most obvious plan would be to put a bell on the cat. But nobody's emerged from the crowd to lead the mice to that Nirvana of belled-cat peace, by actually volunteering to, you know, bell the cat.
In other words, we are experiencing a leadership void of epic proportions. Obama won't say what he's for or against (as six in ten Americans point out). Teddy Kennedy's gone to his eternal rest in Arlington. Howard Dean was sidelined because Rahm Emanuel didn't like him. Nancy Pelosi can only do so much on her own. And in this leadership void, nobody else has stepped up to be a clear and convincing voice for the reformers at all on the Democratic side.
But politics, like nature, abhors a vacuum. With no one leading the reformers, and with no actual legislation (or, to be accurate -- three bills to choose from, and one committee which is still practicing delaying tactics), it's been fairly easy for the oh-so-predictable divide-and-conquer tactics from the anti-reform crowd.
And make no mistake about it, the anti-reformers are winning thus far. Because Democrats have not only failed to sell their ideas as the best possible ideas, they have, at this point, failed to even adequately explain what those ideas are.
The only way real healthcare reform is going to take place this year is if all those Democrats come back from vacation and realize that not only do they have to achieve a strong "united we stand, divided we fall" attitude towards the issue, they've also got to end the confusion in the public's mind about what they are for, what they are trying to do, and why they are trying to do it. The best place this leadership could come from (indeed, possibly the only place left at this juncture) is from the Oval Office itself.
There were a lot of caricatures of Barack Obama bandied about on the campaign trail last year. Some were more scurrilous than others. But the one which even his supporters occasionally wondered about was the charge that Obama preferred straddling an issue rather than taking a strong stance (remember Republicans fulminating over all those "Present" votes?). It is now time for President Obama to either lay this notion to rest, and become a full-voiced champion of healthcare reform (with details about what he supports and what he doesn't) -- or it is time for some of his supporters to admit that maybe there was more than a grain of truth to sneering at Obama for all those "Present" votes in the first place.
-- Chris Weigant
Technical Note -
I'm encouraging everyone who has been commenting on my "Piecemeal Economics On Health Care" article to continue their discussion here. Although the comment thread has set some sort of record here, with 54 comments (last time I checked), it has now scrolled off the "recent articles" linkbox up top, so it'll be easier for everyone to use this article instead.
But I wanted to provide the link to the original here up front, in case people get confused at a continuation of an older conversation in your comments.
Thanks, as always, to everyone for commenting.
-CW
I'm encouraging everyone who has been commenting on my "Piecemeal Economics On Health Care" article to continue their discussion here.
Good call there, CW.. :D It's a helluva discussion. :D
With regards to your title of THIS commentary, being the old school STYX fan that I am, allow me to render the lyrics that inspired the title of this commentary... :D
Welcome to the grand illusion
Come on in and see whats happening
Pay the price, get your tickets for the show
The stage is set, the band starts playing
Suddenly your heart is pounding
Wishing secretly you were a star.
But dont be fooled by the radio
The tv or the magazines
They show you photographs of how your life should be
But theyre just someone elses fantasy
So if you think your life is complete confusion
Because you never win the game
Just remember that its a grand illusion
And deep inside were all the same.
Were all the same...
So if you think your life is complete confusion
Because your neighbors got it made
Just remember that its a grand illusion
And deep inside were all the same.
Were all the same...
America spells competition, join us in our blind ambition
Get yourself a brand new motor car
Someday soon well stop to ponder what on earths this spell were under
We made the grade and still we wonder who the hell we are
If there ever was an epitome of the Democratic Party, that is it..
Michale.....
Chris, I'm not sure the situation is as bleak as you represent. The wave of tinfoil-hattery has crested, IMHO.
The GOP has nothing to offer except the usual suspects, like tort reform. The Gang of Six is no more; Enzi and Grasshole have stepped away and left their cards on the table.
Obama, on the other hand, arrives in DC well rested and prepared to push reform through on a party-line vote. I'm not giving up just yet.
Chris,
That article by Reich stuck in my head for 2 hours this afternoon. Was so glad to see someone else was thinking about it too :).
Opponents of health care reform have a much easier job. All they have to do is sow dissent and confusion. It's easy to sit back and be a critic, but another thing entirely to offer solutions.
Reformists need to keep hammering on this point. Either a) come to the table with solutions or b)get out of the way.
For Obama to be a truly great political figure he is going to need to learn how to fight the good fight despite the monied efforts of the corporate lobbying interests.
-David
More later. Off to barbecue.
Opponents of health care reform have a much easier job. All they have to do is sow dissent and confusion. It's easy to sit back and be a critic, but another thing entirely to offer solutions.
WOW...
Shades of "Patriot Act" and "War On Terror" except the roles are diametrically reversed.
Reformists need to keep hammering on this point. Either a) come to the table with solutions or b)get out of the way.
I agree completely..
Ergo, those that advocate DUNSELCARE should get out of the way..
Because DunselCare is NOT reform.
No way, no how...
For Obama to be a truly great political figure he is going to need to learn how to fight the good fight despite the monied efforts of the corporate lobbying interests.
Exactly the problem...
Obama is trying to figure out how to be a "great political figure" when he SHOULD be trying to figure out how to be a great LEADER.
Partisans always want "great political figures"..
Those who truly have the interests of the country at heart are looking for "Great Leaders".
Michale.....
Obama, on the other hand, arrives in DC well rested and prepared to push reform through on a party-line vote. I'm not giving up just yet.
Well rested??
Have you even READ any news reports??
Obama is far from "well rested".
What with trying to divert attention away with the Bernake nomination and the prosecution of CIA CT operatives, Obama is coming out severely punch-drunk.
Or are you missing the severely depressed poll-numbers??
Poll numbers you swear by, when they were in the honeymoon period...
Michale.....
The explanation i think most people would understand is on the fundamental difference between NEEDS and WANTS. Basic medical care is NOT a regular commodity; it's a NEED, like water. Without it, you die. People desperately need the equivalent of tap water, but all that is currently available is the equivalent of Evian.
The entire medical industry is exploiting that fact, from the insurance companies to the drug companies to the makers of medical technology, right down to many of the doctors. They know that "Evian" care is the only option, so they can jack up the prices all they want, and anyone who can't afford the care they need has no other option. And this lack of "tap-water" care is breaking the backs of every other industry and any individual who isn't rich.
So when i watch on tv the rants of these insane people at the town-hall meetings, it baffles me. they're saying the equivalent of, "i'd rather die of thirst than have the government provide tap-water."
Michale -
I was wondering if anyone would spot that. I actually saw Styx live, right after they put out The Grand Illusion album, and thought it was a pretty decent show. The phrase, I believe, is a lot older than the band, but for once you were on target -- this is indeed the reference I was thinking when I wrote the title to today's article. Color me shallow, I guess...
I had forgotten the line "Get yourself a brand new motor car," though, which seems particularly relevant these days...
David -
Enjoy the barbecue!
To everyone -
Working feverishly on tomorrow's Obama Poll Watch column. If you'd like an advance preview, I've spruced up the ObamaPollWatch.com page and updated the graphs, so go check it out! You know you want to!
:-)
-CW
nypoet22 -
See, now you're getting into the territory of "our precious bodily fluids"...
Heh heh.
[Anyone who doesn't recognize that reference needs to put "Dr. Strangelove: Or How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Bomb" on the very TOP of their NetFlix list...]
-CW
CW
Once again, I have to wonder if someone in the Obama administration reads your column.. :D
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0909/26672.html
It also appears that Obama is gonna flip the bird to the Far Left and drop the public option.
Michale.....
You want to know why the left has ideas and the right has discipline? Because people who like ideas and dislike authority tend to identify with the Democratic left, while people who feel threatened by new ideas and more comfortable in a disciplined and ordered world tend to identify with the Republican right. Democrats and progressives let a thousand flowers bloom. Republicans and the right issue directives. This has been the yin and yang of American politics and culture. But it means that the Democratic left's new ideas often fall victim to its own notorious lack of organization and to the right's highly-organized fear mongering.
That's pretty much what I have been saying for years now. And what you said (more diplomatically than I have) a week or so ago.
It's apparent that a LOT of people recognize the Democratic Party's most basic flaw.
EXCEPT, of course, the leaders who are in a position to fix it.
But, that does bring up an interesting question.
If the Democratic Party "fixes" it's most basic flaw, which also happens to be the very foundation of the Party itself, would it STILL be the Democratic Party??
Hmmmmmm.....
Because Democrats have not only failed to sell their ideas as the best possible ideas, they have, at this point, failed to even adequately explain what those ideas are.
Exactly! Democrats have not only failed to stay on Message, they can't even agree what the Message is!!
Gods, we're agreeing so much, it's downright scary!!! :D
And make no mistake about it, the anti-reformers are winning thus far.
I don't think it's fair to call them "anti-reformers".
I don't think you'll find many people who say that reform is NOT needed.
But DunselCare is NOT reform.
So, maybe "anti-Dunsels" would be a more accurate description.. :D
Michale.....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6127514/Sentenced-to-death-on-the-NHS.html
While reading this article, beyond thinking of "Death Panels", I am reminded of a Star Trek TNG episode. It was noteworthy (to me) only for the Guest Star. David Ogden Steirs.
For those old farts amongst us (like me) Mr Steirs will always be remembered as the stodgy, but big-hearted Major Charles Emerson Winchester III of M*A*S*H fame.
In any case, the ST episode is relevant as it deals with a society whereas people commit society-encouraged suicide when they reach a certain age because their studies showed that, at said age, the people no longer contribute to society, but rather become a burden to said society.
One can't help but wonder if this is the path that DunselCare may take us down. Especially in light of the fact that European Health Care programs are held in such high esteem by the promoters of DunselCare.
Regardless, it's a poke in the eye for those who claim that Star Trek (specifically) or Fiction (In General) cannot provide a microcosm where we can imagine and postulate possibilities....
And THAT is always a worthwhile endeavor.. :D
Michale....
Chris,
Finally having a few moments to post about it, here's one thing Reich missed.
It's easy to have message discipline when you own the media. Remember when there was an objective media that actually analyzed arguments instead of simply saying Democrats said this & Republicans said that?
This was the media that conservatives referred to as "liberal". Why? Because analysis did not agree with them as often as they felt it should. Or, as Stephen Colbert put it, "reality has a strong liberal bias."
The irony is that this media no longer exists in the mainstream. Viacom, GE, NewsCorp, Gannett, ClearChannel, and a few other large companies own most of the media.
That said, knowing that you will be beat up in the mainstream media any time you go against corporate interests is powerful information. It changes your negotiating standpoint. If you're going to get beat up regardless of whether you lead or compromise, why compromise?
Or you can be like Harry Reid and think, my poll numbers are dropping, maybe I should try to compromise more.
-David
It's easy to have message discipline when you own the media.
Sorry, but this dog simply will not hunt.
Unless you are admitting that Fox News is the totality of the "media", the idea that the Right "owns" the media is just so much BS.
For every media outlet that is critical of Obama and Democrats, there are 5 outlets that sing their praises to the high heavens.
You say "Fox News" and I say, "NBC, CBS, ABC, MSNBC etc etc etc"
Remember when there was an objective media that actually analyzed arguments instead of simply saying Democrats said this & Republicans said that?
You mean like Obama's infomercials??
Let's face the facts here.
In the beginning, Obama had an impressive array of forces at his command. Complete Democratic control of nearly every facet of government, poll numbers that were thru the roof in approval and a media that would swoon and report as the second coming every burp and fart Obama made.
In short, Obama and the Democrats had EVERY possible political advantage.
There is absolutely ZERO excuse for Democrats not getting things done.
ZERO.. ZILCH.. NADA.. NONE..
Why not just admit what the FACTS clearly show?
Democrats, as a Party, are simply incapable of functioning in a leadership role.
Ya'all attack and castigate Harry Reid on a regular basis and rightly so.
Yet, what ya'all fail to realize is that Harry Reid is the quintessential Democrat.
For the Democratic Party, Reid is the rule. NOT the exception.
Michale.....
Somebody sounds jealous of Obama ....
Would an objective media give any coverage at all to the birthers? No. They would research the issue, find it has no grounds, and then say that.
Would an objective media continue to talk about "death panels" that don't exist? They would research it, find it isn't the truth, and then say that.
This used to be the purpose of the media. Truth filter. Now, the way the news works is the way conservatives have fought for it to work for years. All they do is report what each side says.
And they've done this in a "two conservatives to every liberal" ratio.
Not just at Fox. But at MSNBC, owned by General Electric.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/05/29/yellin/
That's what is so funny. For all that screaming and yelling about a liberal media, there is no liberal media.
There's not even an objective mainstream media. It's a corporate mainstream media.
Obama got good coverage of the press until he was an actual threat to conservatives. Then, all of a sudden, the press turned. Oddly enough, this was at about the same time that conservatives recognized that he actually might win.
Republicans realized long ago that they wouldn't be able to do anything without owning the media. So they've been working at it for 30 years.
Why do they need the media so much? Because it's hard to sell trickle down theory and policies that wreck our country w/o a huge propaganda machine.
The amazing thing is that Democrats are being elected at all. This goes to show how people are tuning out the mainstream media and recognizing that pure conservative ideology is about as good for the country as it was for the financial system.
Cheers
David
Would an objective media give any coverage at all to the birthers?
We have already covered this.
Yes, an OBJECTIVE media would give coverage to the "birthers" because they raise some valid points.
Would an objective media continue to talk about "death panels" that don't exist?
You obviously are not up on current events.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6127514/Sentenced-to-death-on-the-NHS.html
Since supporters of DunselCare point to the British NHS as an example, then the "death panels" of NHS are of legitimate news value.
Your definition of "objective" is quite subjective.
Obama got good coverage of the press until he was an actual threat to conservatives. Then, all of a sudden, the press turned. Oddly enough, this was at about the same time that conservatives recognized that he actually might win.
Obama has gotten great coverage all thru the campaign AND thru 6 months of his presidency.
The only reason the press started turning is because the American people started turning.
Not versie vicie.
Republicans realized long ago that they wouldn't be able to do anything without owning the media. So they've been working at it for 30 years.
Do you REALLY believe that?? Seriously??
It's all a "vast right wing conspiracy" right?? :^/
The amazing thing is that Democrats are being elected at all. This goes to show how people are tuning out the mainstream media and recognizing that pure conservative ideology is about as good for the country as it was for the financial system.
And yet, Obama is tanking a Democrats can't get ANYTHING done, even with a virtual LOCK on nearly every aspect of government.
Why do you think that is?
It can't be the Republicans, because conventional wisdom here says that the GOP is "irrelevant" and "going south"..
It can't be the media because Obama has enjoyed one of the largest and longest Administration/Media lovefest in the history of the country.
So, who can the Democrats blame for ALL of their problems?
Maybe they should take a look in the mirror, eh? :D
Michale.....
Would an objective media continue to talk about "death panels" that don't exist? They would research it, find it isn't the truth, and then say that.
I am also constrained to point out that, after the initial report of Palin's FaceBook entry, the media only reported the Administration's response as Obama et al fell all over themselves to try and dispute the claim. If the administration had just ignored the initial FaceBook entry as the total BS they CLAIM it to be, then it would have been a blip and then it would have gone away. But, Obama et al gave the rumor credibility by trying so vehemently to deny it. Which led to Palin's response and, knowing that it pushes the Left's buttons, the mainstream conservatives picked it up. All because of a private citizen's post on FaceBook...
It's like I said previously. If the President Of The United States responds so franticly and vehemently to a private citizens FaceBook posting, then said President is in real trouble..
Imagine if I had posted here in cw.com that President Obama is really a Vulcan and Obama and his entire administration took to the airwaves to frantically deny that "scurrilous rumor"... Wouldn't that make Joe Q Public think, "Hmmmmmm... Why is the President Of the United States going on National TV over and over again to deny accusations made by this Michale guy on chrisweigant.com??"
Wouldn't an OBJECTIVE and RATIONAL person find that a bit strange??
It's the same with the birther issue. You don't spend 1.4 million dollars to keep something secret that is a "non-issue". Simply by virtue of that kind of action, it strongly indicates that SOMETHING hinky is going on.
What could be on that long form birth certificate that is worth 1.4 MILLION dollars to keep secret? Don't you wonder?? I am sure if it was Bush instead of Obama, you would definitely wonder, eh? :D
Michale.....
Support DunselCare or someone from MoveOn Dot Org might bite off your finger!! :D
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090903/ap_on_re_us/us_finger_severed
Michale.....
Your logic is perplexing. Wouldn't you fight if someone lied about you?
So using your logic ... when I insinuated that you were a paid conservative commentator and you denied it, this means you must be a tool of the man? It's all starting to come together now. (you realize I'm joking, of course)
Seriously though, why the focus on pushing the left's buttons? I mean, other than that it's fun :).
- David
p.s. Obama is a vulcan?! Now that is cool.
Your logic is perplexing. Wouldn't you fight if someone lied about you?
Depends on who the someone is and the reason for the "lie".
If the likes of Osama Bin Laden or Bill Ayers lied about me, I would consider the source and ignore it.
If the lie was totally outrageous and completely unbelievable (like the Left claims the "death panel" "lies" are) then that would be even more reason to simply ignore it.
So using your logic … when I insinuated that you were a paid conservative commentator and you denied it, this means you must be a tool of the man? It's all starting to come together now. (you realize I'm joking, of course)
Exactly. I know this "lie" is a joke and that no one could possibly believe such felgercarb so I simply choose to ignore it. :D Anything else simply calls attention to it and gives it credibility.
Seriously though, why the focus on pushing the left's buttons? I mean, other than that it's fun :).
Probably because the Left so enjoys pushing the Right's buttons, when the Right is in power.
This is actually an interesting study in socio-political activities. The Left acts like the Right when the Right is in power and the Right acts like the Left when the Left is in power.
Fascinating..
p.s. Obama is a vulcan?! Now that is cool.
Ain't it? :D
Of course, since Obama et al are not blanketing the airwaves with denials, it is (of course) not true. :^D
Michale.....
Michale,
Though there's similarities, there's also differences between the parties when in power.
Obama seemed genuinely interested in compromising. And conservatives said "no," we prefer to beat you up. It is their only issue at the moment: anti-Obama.
Republicans made it very clear when in power, that they had little interest in compromising, but in working for only the "majority of the majority". That is, the minority base.
This is what was considered leading.
I would like to think that no matter who was in power that he/she would work for all of the people and be willing to find common ground.
-David
"It is curious how often you humans manage to obtain that which you do not want."
Though there's similarities, there's also differences between the parties when in power.
I would venture to wager that the similarities far outweigh the differences.
But hay, let's roll with this.
What differences do you see? :D
Obama seemed genuinely interested in compromising.
I agree. But that comes from an over abundance of idealism and a significant lack of experience.
Pretty much why I voted for the guy.
And conservatives said "no," we prefer to beat you up. It is their only issue at the moment: anti-Obama.
And here again is one of those partisan attitudes that I pointed out to Liz.
Isn't it possible that there are some real problems with Obama's policies and that it's not just an "I HATE OBAMA" frenzy?
Can you concede that there may be people out there who actually like the guy and hope he succeeds, but are troubled by his naivete and the kinds of people he surrounds himself with?
In short, maybe it's NOT about hate but rather about sincere concerns?
Liz says I tend to pooh pooh things away as nothing but partisan bigotry. While there may be some truth to that, it's ALSO true that you (and many on here like you) tend to write off any opposition to Obama and his policies as nothing but Conservative hatred and an Anti-Obama attitude.
At least ya'all don't accuse anyone of racism like most of the Democrat leadership and rank and file does. That's a plus anyways. :D
I would like to think that no matter who was in power that he/she would work for all of the people and be willing to find common ground.
I completely agree.. So, rather than just writing off conservatives as just another hate group, why not try to understand what they are saying.. Or, at the very least, WHY they are saying it.
And I, for my part, will endeavor to see the logic and reason in ya'alls arguments, rather than just pooh pooh it away as partisan bigotry. :D
"It is curious how often you humans manage to obtain that which you do not want."
Spock, STAR TREK Errand Of Mercy
:D Kudos.
Michale.....
Michale,
I think there are many valid concerns around Obama's policies. A few in health care:
- How will we pay for it?
- How do we ensure choice and not limit options?
- What is the role of competition? How would we make sure this works?
You and Dorkfish and/or Chris and others have all mentioned these at one point or another.
I think Obama would be more than willing to try to work with conservatives on addressing these concerns.
The trouble is, the leaders of the conservative party are not touting these concerns. They are talking about "death panels" and "socialism" and using the opportunity to gain political points rather than talk through valid concerns. And they have indicated no desire to compromise or even want to talk about valid concerns. Sometimes they come up, but not at the forefront of the discussion.
I don't write off conservatives such as yourself, Dorkfish and others as a hate group. In fact, I think we could probably come up with better plans on this blog through our discussions than either of the parties. But y'all and the conservative leadership are quite different.
Happy Labor Day weekend all!
David
The trouble is, the leaders of the conservative party are not touting these concerns. They are talking about "death panels" and "socialism" and using the opportunity to gain political points rather than talk through valid concerns. And they have indicated no desire to compromise or even want to talk about valid concerns. Sometimes they come up, but not at the forefront of the discussion.
That's a valid accusation against conservative LEADERS. I feel it might be an overly broad paintbrush, but understandable, given the circumstances.
My beef with the complaints around here is that they (appear) to target the rank and file. The conservative VOTERS and people attending the town halls are labeled "astro turf" and worse by both Democrat leaders and rank and file Democrats. These accusations are unfounded and unfair.
Happy Labor Day weekend all!
Holy carp, is it Labor Day already!!!!????
Michale.....
Well said, Michale. I don't think talking about them as "astroturf" helps Democrats. It's like saying to people, your opinion doesn't matter.
I think the Dems get frustrated because these people come to town hall meetings having been instructed to disrupt the meetings and they're not sure what to do about it.
How do you have a conversation with someone who doesn't want to have a conversation?
It's tough and hard for me to imagine being in this position. I'd probably have to set the stage by saying something like, if you're here to have a conversation, let's talk. If you're here simply to disrupt, we will ask you to leave.
And yes, I feel the same way about left wing groups that do the same thing.
How would you handle?
Honestly, I don't think we fall into the categories of liberal and conservative. I think of myself as pretty fiscally conservative when it comes down to it. Think we probably all have liberal & conservative sides to some extent.
I don't think anyone, for example, wants to see people go bankrupt because of health care costs. Like you said, we all seem to agree that reform is needed. We just take different approaches on how best we might solve.
- David
How do you have a conversation with someone who doesn't want to have a conversation?
I agree completely. It's the same feeling I get when trying to show people that there are valid reasons for torturing scumbag terrorists.. :D
It's tough and hard for me to imagine being in this position. I'd probably have to set the stage by saying something like, if you're here to have a conversation, let's talk. If you're here simply to disrupt, we will ask you to leave.
And yes, I feel the same way about left wing groups that do the same thing.
Sadly, you are the exception rather than the Rule. Democrats loss is our gain.. :D
Speaking of media bias before, I found a perfect example of liberal media bias.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/The-Van-Jones-non-feeding-non-frenzy-57271402.html
Given the extensive liberal coverage of that "macaca" moment, the liberal bias is completely transparent. And I don't mean Obama's form of "transparency"...
Michale....
Interesting point about discipline and ideas. Maybe that explains my issues when it comes to defining my political ideology; I'm an ideas man who also favours order and discipline (I am a lawyer so that should surprise noone).